PADI Master Diver Certification

[loosebits]

I....the fact of the matter is that the PBB class is a nice offer for a new diver or one getting back into diving after a laps.

The new diver should have learned this in OW.

I know there is a group of divers out there that think learning is done by simply reading a few books and going out with a buddy and trying to work through the material themselves....that is cool in practice on some things,,,,but PPB is a great offer for a diver to work with in a formal setting and then off on their own as they gain experience.

I agree, this should be learned in a formal setting, they used to call it OW. And yes, I am learning how to dive trimix on my own. I'm even blending it on my own. Those who know me know I'm doing it prudently and safely. If you're trying to be subtle, you need some more practice.

I don't believe fully that you trully have a grasp on what the average PADI run program really is----unless I am mistaken you are a product of the NAUI system,,,and further,,,unless I am wrong, you are not a 'Pro' level diver whom has worked with new and experienced divers both in actual training of scuba skills....so I question your knowlegable insights into such matters....but please correct me on the above so I might be better informed.....and please take no offense, but trully I think until you have been there and done that,,,,you really don't have a clue.

Before I get started, I'm agency bashing alright, just all agencies.. PADI doesn't have a monopoly on putting unprepared divers in the water.

Are you saying OW can be done in two days? Do you believe that a student that comes out of a two day class is prepared to save his life or yours? You don't think that perhaps a longer class would make a better, safer diver? You actually think the shortening of classes has been a good thing? If you really believe that, you've swallowed what the agencies have been dishing out and are asking for more. If you know better and understand its all about market share and defend it anyway then you are part of the problem. You are telling your students, god help them, that they really are prepared for diving after their 9 hours in the pool and if they want to learn other "advanced" skills like how not to sit on the bottom or shoot to the surface, they should take a PPB class. Of course they believe you because you are the Holy Dive Master (praise be unto him). Unfortunately they get on the dive boat and they still believe you because EVERYONE ELSE TOOK THE SAME CLASS and people like me screaming at the top of their lungs that today's training is inadequate get looked at like we're the latest incarnation of GI3.

The only thing that keeps divers who take these short classes from killing themselves is that chances are they'll learn the skills and reach the comfort level on their own before a situation happens that would have killed otherwise.

The simple fact is this: classes have gotten progressively shorter, the amount of skills on can develop and the degree of comfort in the water must have deteriorated as well. Do you want to argue this? Does PADI have some secret subliminal technique they use on their DVDs that allow them to shorten classes without cutting content or practice? I'm not a PADI professional so I probably wouldn't have a clue.

You're a nice guy Alan but you need to take some responsibility. Every diver I see in the mud and dragging his console and octopus behind him (it seems most of them do these days) is a testament to the kind of training you and other professionals are giving them.

 

[texdiveguy]

The new diver should have learned this in OW.

I agree, this should be learned in a formal setting, they used to call it OW. And yes, I am learning how to dive trimix on my own. I'm even blending it on my own. If you're trying to be subtle, you need some more practice.


Before I get started, I'm agency bashing alright, just all agencies.. PADI doesn't have a monopoly on putting unprepared divers in the water.

Are you saying OW can be done in two days? Do you believe that a student that comes out of a two day class is prepared to save his life or yours? You don't think that perhaps a longer class would make a better, safer diver? You actually think the shortening of classes has been a good thing? If you really believe that, you've swallowed what the agencies have been dishing out and are asking for more. If you know better and understand its all about market share and defend it anyway then you are part of the problem. You are telling your students, god help them, that they really are prepared for diving after their 9 hours in the pool and if they want to learn other "advanced" skills like how not to sit on the bottom or shoot to the surface, they should take a PPB class. Of course they believe you because you are the Holy Dive Master (praise be unto him). Unfortunately they get on the dive boat and they still believe you because EVERYONE ELSE TOOK THE SAME CLASS and people like me screaming at the top of their lungs that today's training is inadequate get looked at like we're the latest incarnation of GI3.

The only thing that keeps divers who take these short classes from killing themselves is that chances are they'll learn the skills and reach the comfort level on their own before a situation happens that would have killed otherwise.

The simple fact is this: classes have gotten progressively shorter, the amount of skills on can develop and the degree of comfort in the water must have deteriorated as well. Do you want to argue this? Does PADI have some secret subliminal technique they use on their DVDs that allow them to shorten classes without cutting content or practice? I'm not a PADI professional so I probably wouldn't have a clue.

You're a nice guy Alan but you need to take some responsibility. Every diver I see in the mud and dragging his console and octopus behind him (it seems most of them do these days) is a testament to the kind of training you and other professionals are giving them.

First off I have not in any of my comments in this post stated ANYTHING regarding the proper length of classes from OW the more advanced,,,so please don't be confussing that. I agree that a 2 day OW class is to short--we agree on that for sure!
In terms of YOU learning trimix diving and blending on your own,,,well if you are comfortable with that, fine.... self study is admirable in a person---I to do alot of it self study myself....BUT, I take it one step further with formal instruction/testing/practicals that are critqued, and mentorship, something that is much lacking in the 'self study' only method, NOT to mention the fact that outside your small group....no other knowing trimix cert. diver would conduct a formal trimix run with you,,,,shops will not sell you trimix on the road, or allow your participation in trimix related charters....I can assure you that is highly looked down on in the tech world of diving.
I find it odd that you are so against formal instruction on gas blending,,,,it again is to help you better understand the processes of blending and the responsiblities so attached to the process,,,you also get plenty of O2 cleaning experience that will help in,,,say O2 cleaning your tanks as needed. Its the home brewers that mainly get themselves in trouble time and time again.... maybe its all about saving a few bucks-right.
I would hope that any new diver that I have the oppt. to work with does not drag his/her console---I could not sleep at night with that thought... that is a pet-peeve of mine! No Dragging--
I guess the whole thing is basically, that if you want to see things change Rand,,,even on a local in terms of diver training and such,,, get involved in the process,,, just sitting back and pointing out preseved short comings and complaining will not change a thing.....you are full Cave and have more than a few dives under your belt,,,,,step out and put those level of skills into assisting, by constructive dialogs. I take pride in my achivements in my diving career and I do the best I can to help others thru example, not by aways looking for the negatives.
Safe diving always.

 

[loosebits]

First off I have not in any of my comments in this post stated ANYTHING regarding the proper length of classes from OW the more advanced,,,so please don't be confussing that. I agree that a 2 day OW class is to short--we agree on that for sure!

Finally you said it. That was what the last two posts were all about. So perhaps you're favorite agency has standards that don't prepare the OW diver for OW diving.

[qupte]
In terms of YOU learning trimix diving and blending on your own,,,well if you are comfortable with that, fine.... self study is admirable in a person---I to do alot of it self study myself....BUT, I take it one step further with formal instruction/testing/practicals that are critqued, and mentorship, something that is much lacking in the 'self study' only method, NOT to mention the fact that outside your small group....no other knowing trimix cert. diver would conduct a formal trimix run with you,,,,shops will not sell you trimix on the road, or allow your participation in trimix related charters....I can assure you that is highly looked down on in the tech world of diving.
[/quote]

Right now trimix is for my own enjoyment of Lake Travis. I've gone no deeper on mix than I've been on air. I can plan and execute my dive nailing my planned ascent rate on the nose. I can do contengincy planning and I can even hold a stop. If I ever feel I have the cave diving skills to go dive DPIII or Eagles Nest, I'll be taking Adv Mix (the introduction of another deco bottle seems to warrant more formal training). Hopefully the instructor I would use (already picked out) will accept my log book in place of entry-level mix. If not, oh well, I guess I'll take entry level mix.

Regardless what's the point. This is offtopic, you agree?

no other knowing trimix cert. diver would conduct a formal trimix run with you,,,,shops will not sell you trimix on the road, or allow your participation in trimix related charters....I can assure you that is highly looked down on in the tech world of diving.

When did you step up from lite-tech? And what is a "formal" trimix run? Is that a term I missed from not taking the class? And who specifically have you spoken with in the tech world of diving that is looking down on it? I have no doubt a lot of people would consider it a bad idea but I'm sure if they knew the amount of study I've done into the theory and how slowly I'm proceding with the execution, many but not all would consider that I am doing it safely.

Again, this is off topic.

I find it odd that you are so against formal instruction on gas blending,,,,it again is to help you better understand the processes of blending and the responsiblities so attached to the process,,,you also get plenty of O2 cleaning experience that will help in,,,say O2 cleaning your tanks as needed. Its the home brewers that mainly get themselves in trouble time and time again.... maybe its all about saving a few bucks-right.

The shop that was encouraging that I take the class from them cannot even O2 clean my tanks (I called and checked) and they don't PP blend. My tanks are being cleaned as we speak by another shop. I've read Oxyhacker's Companion and that is probably the most thorough book on the subject. Everyone on TDS who talks about O2 cleaning or setting up a home fill station says read that book. I don't ever hear many recommendations for taking PADI's gas blender class. Do you want to count threads again to get a general consensus?

Btw, the only explosion I've heard of in the area was a LDS that was continuous blending. Blew up a third stage seperator.

...off topic

I would hope that any new diver that I have the oppt. to work with does not drag his/her console---I could not sleep at night with that thought... that is a pet-peeve of mine! No Dragging--

How do you sleep when they yo-yo? Sorry, couldn't help it

I guess the whole thing is basically, that if you want to see things change Rand,,,even on a local in terms of diver training and such,,, get involved in the process,,, just sitting back and pointing out preseved short comings and complaining will not change a thing.....you are full Cave and have more than a few dives under your belt,,,,,step out and put those level of skills into assisting, by constructive dialogs. I take pride in my achivements in my diving career and I do the best I can to help others thru example, not by aways looking for the negatives.
Safe diving always.

My initial dialog was constructive and I was trying to help the local dive scene. Please re-read what I had in bold in my first post. I said it wasn't the new divers fault, it wasn't the LDSs fault and it wasn't the agencies fault (the later two are just responding to market pressures). I said we, as experienced divers need to build a market for longer OW classes by encouraging the possible lurkers on this board to spend the money it takes to get the training they deserve.

The rest of my post was pointing out that PPB shouldn't be for new divers at all (even though you specifically mentioned them in your marketing of it) as that should have been well covered in OW.

Somehow you took offense at this, told me I was clueless of the PADI program and didn't know what I was talking about. Now you're agreeing that a 2 day class isn't long enough. How do you reconcile this with your belief that PPB is a good class for a newly carded diver without screaming that the only reason it's a good class is because people aren't learning it where it should be learned - OW.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

no other knowing trimix cert. diver would conduct a formal trimix run with you,,,,shops will not sell you trimix on the road, or allow your participation in trimix related charters....I can assure you that is highly looked down on in the tech world of diving....

You want to place bets ont his one? I know of some shops I can go to today and get trimix fills on the road, and I do not know the shop owner. I do not condone what I do, so no one else should do it I've educated myself to the level of risk then I do a simple risk/benefit comparison, and already have a mix instructor lined up with a potential second mix instructor picked out.

I find it odd that you are so against formal instruction on gas blending,,,,it again is to help you better understand the processes of blending and the responsiblities so attached to the process,,,you also get plenty of O2 cleaning experience that will help in,,,say O2 cleaning your tanks as needed. Its the home brewers that mainly get themselves in trouble time and time again.... maybe its all about saving a few bucks-right.

I've tried several times in the past to take a formal blending class, I asked one shop, they said "I only teach instructors" I asked another shop, "I only teach people that work in the dive industry" I ask another shop --> "Why do you want me to take your money, go get a book and learn how to do it" so I listened to him, so I got my knowledge from Oxyhacker, GI3, other experienced divers, and a couple local professionals took time out to help me out --> (not scuba instructors) and I've read reports of home brewers blowing stuff up and when I see what they were doing the first question that comes to my mind is how they didn't do it earlier!

When I heard a local shop was teaching a blending class I took interest even tho I've been blending in the garage, training couldn't hurt, then I found out the shop can not o2 clean tanks, and does not or rather has not performed partial pressure blending, I took it off my list right away.

I would hope that any new diver that I have the oppt. to work with does not drag his/her console---I could not sleep at night with that thought... that is a pet-peeve of mine! No Dragging--

If this is true then kuddo's cause no one else seams to care!

I guess the whole thing is basically, that if you want to see things change Rand,,,even on a local in terms of diver training and such,,, get involved in the process,,,

I know I have got involved some in the process, one diver at a time, I got a buddy into diving and I told him, take this class down here, yes its a pain to drive all the way down there for that long (UTA) but you'll thank me for it when you hit OW and see all the divers flailing all over the place. He got back from a dive trip and he came to me and said man you were right, I saw all the things you said I would see and it was crazy, I'm glad I took that long class.

I felt good that day, I had reached someone! couple other stories but I'll leave them off of here.

I would like to see a shop offer a longer class as well and serve it up side by side to the express classes, but I know it won't happen, and I know that if a shop offers classes that are in the lenght of months no one will sign up and that shop will lose buisness, thats just marketing and the american way, fast food fast cars fast scuba lessons, I've had a shop bugging me for a while now to Dive Master for them, and I won't, simply because if I do I would become part of the proccess I disagree with.

Kind of like continuing education, like, wrap up OW, AOW, and Nitrox all into one class and stretch it over 3 months with lots of pool time.

I'm so glad I took my OW class through UTA, I feel I got more than my money's worth with a long class, no, I know I got more than my moneys worth.

 

[texdiveguy]

.

We could go on and on,,,,but I think both of us have other things more constructive to do---agreed.
My point is that when you achieve what is accepted within the scuba diving community as standard practices for certification and have been 'carded' such within the recreational Pro level and mixed gas tech level,,,then you can speak from the side of --I been there and done that,,,not just the side of guessing and speculation better know of late as 'no...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express'. I don't know the shop you are refering to,,,but can speak from experience that my LDS preforms O2 cleaning of tanks/valves/regs,,,,and does provide PP blending of EAN and TMx to customers,,,,but as in any shop... they reserve the right to not preform those services at their descression. Anyone trully wanting to be a mixed gas tech diver,,should go get certified,,,if I were wanting to get into full cave diving,,,I would not just read a few books and go out and play in a cave!

 

[FIXXERVI6]

We could go on and on,,,,but I think both of us have other things more constructive to do---agreed.
My point is that when you achieve what is accepted within the scuba diving community as standard practices for certification and have been 'carded' such within the recreational Pro level and mixed gas tech level,,,then you can speak from the side of --I been there and done that,,,not just the side of guessing and speculation. I don't know the shop you are refering to,,,but can speak from experience that my LDS preforms O2 cleaning of tanks/valves/regs,,,,and does provide PP blending of EAN and TMx to customers,,,,but as in any shop... they reserve the right to not preform those services at their descression. Anyone trully wanting to be a mixed gas tech diver,,should go get certified,,,if I were wanting to get into full cave diving,,,I would not just read a few books and go out and play in a cave!

I agree they should get certified, I will hold my Tmx cards one day

You can't learn cave diving from a book, its not an academic skill, you also can not learn trimix diving from a book, you can only learn the academic knowledge from a book, a book won't teach you how to handle multiple deco gases and such, and a book can't teach you how to run a line in ripping flow or how to handle a silt out etc, most of cave diving is not academic.

I have no complaints about most of the higher level classes such as TDI nitrox and such, those classes are mostly academic and if you have a really good instrcutor, you'll get really good instruction.

If you agree that the classes are too short, work with your LDS to offer up an alternative longer class schedule with more pool time along side your short classes to offer up the choice to people who want the additional education.

 

[Walter]

It's amazing to me that people are quick to comdemn folks for doing the very thing that has made diving possible at all levels. At least today, there is information available for people who prefer to learn on their own. In times past, it was learned through trial and error.

The first class I ever attended that taught people to penetrate wrecks was one I taught.

 

[stardust]

The new diver should have learned this in OW.

It's supposed to be fun loosebits; do you want them to take their $ and go skiing?

 

[texdiveguy]

In times past, it was learned through trial and error.

Yea 'times past'..... I remember when men were men, and scuba 'skin' diving classes were very 'navy' in content.....and much of your learning was through trial and error,,,,so happy the scuba industry has grown in its teaching methods. Now those were the days or 'big' Dacor knives and cotton bp webbing-'j' valves- no SPG's,,,maybe a rope with markings-day after day of classwork and tables,,,,,yep the good old days.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I am very much pleased your family did well in their dives after so much time away from diving (this is a good thing)....the fact of the matter is that the PBB class is a nice offer for a new diver or one getting back into diving after a laps. For most folks it allows them instruction in the basics they may be rusty on. Whether conducted in a pool setting or a local pond,,it does help most folks. I can't speak for other training agency programs, but PADI is not bad for the cost and time. I know there is a group of divers out there that think learning is done by simply reading a few books and going out with a buddy and trying to work through the material themselves....that is cool in practice on some things,,,,but PPB is a great offer for a diver to work with in a formal setting and then off on their own as they gain experience.

If an entry level course teaches the mechganics of trim and position control along with buoyancy control. If it allows a little time for practice and works up to doing basic skills midwater where they need to be done, then PPB goes away. Then divers can really get something out of advanced courses because they will finally be free of the bottom and that dive ruining head up trim.

Most recreational courses and the logic behind them is hosed. The PPB course doesn't even have it right and divers come out almost as confused as they went in...in many cases.

I don't believe fully that you trully have a grasp on what the average PADI run program really is----unless I am mistaken you are a product of the NAUI system,,,and further,,,unless I am wrong, you are not a 'Pro' level diver whom has worked with new and experienced divers both in actual training of scuba skills....so I question your knowlegable insights into such matters....but please correct me on the above so I might be better informed.....and please take no offense, but trully I think until you have been there and done that,,,,you really don't have a clue.

Maybe loosebits doesn't have experience teaching PADI programs but I do and my insights on the subject are derived directly from that experience. PADI doesn't talk with their instructors they talk at them. Getting involved in the process means taking your marching orders from them. I'd rather not since I can turn out better divers than a class taught to their standards will and the class won't be real long or hard either. It might be a little longer than what has become the norm (15 hours in the pool, 10 hours in class and 2 long days in OW) but it will go much easier on the students and on me. Diving will also go much better for the student post class. All that is demonstrable. PADI oesn't care and that too is demonstrable.

I don't know how this thread got started on technical stuff but I've taken lots of technical courses too and I have ALL the stupid cards. Most of those classes were equally useless with some exceptions. I think the cave courses are designed well and many of the instructors teaching them are good at what they do. My trimix cert is TDI. The course, as designed, is a joke. My former instructor, however, is a great diver and you aren't going to dive with him for a few days and not learn something. What I learned, though, had NOTHING to do with anything that's ever come out of TDI. Getting the card was a necessary evil and I made the best of it by doing the course with a great diver so that I could learn something IN SPITE of the industry hoops I was jumping through. My normoxic trimix instructor probably saved my life because the other guys had us so screwed up that it was only a matter of time until we got wacked.

The gas blending courses are a gas. LOL. They all have the math all screwed up. I took the classes to get the cards (I think I was able to help the instructor and the rest of the class understand the math) and I taught the classes where I of course cleaned up the math.

Would I do a technical dive with some one who had their stuff together and no card? YES. Would I EVER assume that because one has the card they now or at anytime in the past ever had their stuff together? NO. I can';t trust the agencies to make such determinations so I'll do it myself and the card really doesn't enter into the process at all.

So...what kind of recognition would I give a diver brandishing a master scuba diver card (and yes I have one of those in a box someplace too along with a master scuba diver instructor card)? Well, I'll be polite enough to try not to laugh.

Remember the scarecrow singing "If I only Had a Brain" in the wizard of oz? Imagine the agencies singing "If I Only Had a Clue".

On the good side, my agency teaching days are done. I can't imagine ever needing another agency card for anything. Our business is finished and none of them will ever get another nickle from me. Should I ever get the chance, however, I'd like to get some of my money back from them.