PADI Master Diver Certification

[loosebits]

I found the trimix level of training both from the acdms and field work/dives much more intense.....it has to be. I have completed adv. nitrox and deco procd.,,,,they were challenging and informative,,,trimix level is the next step,,,,I am 4 dives away from adv. trimix which I should have wrapped up soon......you are correct in your assumptions that handling multiple bottles and switchs is more complex--that goes without saying,,,having done actual multi bottle practicals in prep, I can say that with conviction. Task loading in trimix is much more involved than adv. nitrox and extended range. I once thought drag racing was just pushing the pedal through the floor---then I got involved in it---I was wrong,,,, it took study/classwork and practicals/practice. All I can say is until you have gone thru a well instructed trimix level program you really won't know.

Ok, so please tell me about the task loading. What other task is there to breathing a mixture with helium vs air in a lake at 150'? And do you not think I've taken other classes that have exposed me to far more task loading than breathing helium?

And don't you think you should get some more experienced in the 150 - 200' range before you start going below that? Seems dangerous, even with that card that says you can do 200'. I'm not sure how many mix dives outside of training you have but I believe you just completed the entry level class just a few weeks ago. If so, you might want to consider diving at your current level and build up some more experience before going onward.

 

[Walter]

NO. They cut out the militaristic physical training but they haven't added the good stuff. they still teach diving like the BC was just invented and hasn't been fully integrated into training yet with students spending most of the time on their knees and never being required to demonstrate that they can do them midwater where they need to be done.

All they've done is remove things. They haven't added anything of substance. I'd call that going backwards.

BINGO! We have a bingo.

 

[IXΘYΣ]

If you find value in buying a card that says nothing that isn't already contained in your other cards and logbook, good for you.

Odd viewpoint. Your BS, MS & PhD mean nothing by this standard... but people do indeed place great value on those pieces of paper (cards) - that do no more than verify that the component pieces of paper (cards & logbook) and tasks (dives) are completed.
IXΘYΣ

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Odd viewpoint. Your BS, MS & PhD mean nothing by this standard... but people do indeed place great value on those pieces of paper (cards) - that do no more than verify that the component pieces of paper (cards & logbook) and tasks (dives) are completed.
IXΘYΣ

You can't get a true PhD over the internet with 2 days of class

 

[IXΘYΣ]

NO. They cut out the militaristic physical training but they haven't added the good stuff. they still teach diving like the BC was just invented and hasn't been fully integrated into training yet with students spending most of the time on their knees and never being required to demonstrate that they can do them midwater where they need to be done.

All they've done is remove things. They haven't added anything of substance. I'd call that going backwards.

All too true. The number of folks who can't do the essentials like reach their own tank valve is astounding. I for one am surprised we don't have more casualties to the casual state of training that is "standard" these days.
IXΘYΣ

 

[texdiveguy]

Ok, so please tell me about the task loading. What other task is there to breathing a mixture with helium vs air in a lake at 150'? And do you not think I've taken other classes that have exposed me to far more task loading than breathing helium?

And don't you think you should get some more experienced in the 150 - 200' range before you start going below that? Seems dangerous, even with that card that says you can do 200'. I'm not sure how many mix dives outside of training you have but I believe you just completed the entry level class just a few weeks ago. If so, you might want to consider diving at your current level and build up some more experience before going onward.

Exactly....that is just what I am doing,,,,more runs....more diving!! I am one whom does just that---bingo again,,,I practice what I learn,,,dive-dive-dive. Case in point---when you become a trimix cert. diver with whomever you pick (agency) then you can answer those 'so tough' questions you so pride yourself in asking....I could tell you my take all day and you still would not get it. Its great having a so well informed and technically educated and experienced person on the board as you are....we all learn so much. Please educate us all on the world of mixed gas diving...as any good rec. or tech diver I am always open to new creditable information...we all can always learn something new.
And as to cleaning a tank to O2 standards 9you mentioned you are having someone else do your tanks??)....I would think that having read Vances book,,,and being a self DIU that you would clean your own tanks, the divers I dive with at a tech level all clean their own tanks,,including myself,,,,its part of trully being well prepared-trained-read and experienced.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Trimix (single deco gas): Assuming the student can perform all of the skills learned in advanced nitrox, there is nothing different here except like nitrox, the consequences of failing to execute these skills (specifically ascent rates and holding stops) are more severe. The maximum depth has gone from 150' to 200' and that has certain consequences (increased gas consumption, less time to work our problems) but of course I've not gone below 150' which I'm already certified for on air. He in the mix makes you colder but the solution is taught in a classroom... don't use mix for drysuit inflation, get an argon bottle (and make life easy on yourself, fill it with air).

Now, trimix with multiple gas switches is a whole different animal. The complexity of the dive and the contingency planning just went above what I even care to guess at. I don't believe any self-training can prepare the diver for diving in the 200 - 300' range.

A dive involving multiple gas switches is not much different than a dive involving one. You just do it more than one. Yes you have more gasses that might be lost but you plan for it the same way. Managing more than one extra bopttle may take some practice to get slick at it but there is nothing buil into course material to help you. It's a matter of doing it.

Also it's ging to be done a little different in OW than it will in a cave and I doubt many courses address both. you're still going to have to get yourself through a lot of this.

On the reverse side of this argument that not all classes require anything but theory is that just because you've had the card doesn't mean you have the experience to do the dives. For example I'm adv nitrox certified. It was done in the context of cave diving where deco is performed in a very controlled environment with no current (well, there's current, you just know what it's doing ahead of time) and sometimes even a bottom that is at your stop depth much like a lake. I do not believe I'm qualified to do deco diving in the open ocean where you may be blown off the wreck/reef and you have to shoot a bag while you are dealing with currents.

I can assess my own skills and evaluate if I have the know-how to execute a given dive with a certain set of equipment. I don't need a plastic card to tell me if I can do so-and-so and I don't let a plastic card tell me I can do such-and-such. This is because my skills may be different than the guy designing the classes for TDI, IANTD, PADI, etc anticipated and so while I can in certain areas dive beyond my certification in other areas I don't feel comfortable diving to the limits of my certification.

If you, as a fully certified entry-level trimix diver, can point out to me what skills that are involved in diving say 21/35 down to 150' that aren't required to dive air down to 150' with a deco bottle I may reconsider if I believe this is a skill I've not mastered.

IMO, the courses should be arranged on the basis of depth rather than gas. The nature of the gas isn't what changes the way you do a dive it's the depth and resultant complexity.

An example. A normoxic trimix course usually allows training depths to what? 200 ft? with a single decompression gas? Typically I wouldn't do a 200 ft dive with a normoxic gas and I would use 2 decompression gasses. 200 ft is about where I'd switch from a gas like 18/45 to 15/55. Either way, I'd be using two decompression gasses. You might almost consider 18/45 as normoxic (it's close by agency definitions) but 15/55 certainly is not.

Even on most of our 150ish dives where I might use 21/35, I almost always use the same two decompression gasses.

Going further, on a 200ish ft (scratch that lets call it 180 to put it solidly into what the agencies put under normoxic) wreck dive where I want two dives but am limited to one set of doubles on the boat. I might use 2 decompression bottles AND a stage on the first dive. This is fairly common practice and if an agency is going to teach diving to 200 ft they need to teach it the way it's really done. So, you show up to that boat with your normoxic trimix, one deco bottle and you really can't cut the dives.

No, the tech agencies are at least as screwed up as the rest.

 

[IXΘYΣ]

You can't get a true PhD over the internet with 2 days of class

And your point is???
A PhD is still nothing more than a document that certifies a body of work and a bunch of other documents exist. Walter's saying that if you have the documentation for the body of work and the other components, why bother with the card that says so.
My point is that this "one card to indicate a collection of other cards" is not only common practice but both expected and valued - hence my contention that to shun such a card in favor of its underlying collected requirements is an "odd viewpoint."
You hang your degree on the wall, not your transcripts.
IXΘYΣ

 

[FIXXERVI6]

And your point is???
A PhD is still nothing more than a document that certifies a body of work and a bunch of other documents exist. Walter's saying that if you have the documentation for the body of work and the other components, why bother with the card that says so.
My point is that this "one card to indicate a collection of other cards" is not only common practice but both expected and valued - hence my contention that to shun such a card in favor of its underlying collected requirements is an "odd viewpoint."
You hang your degree on the wall, not your transcripts.
IXΘYΣ

Ok I see your point

 

[texdiveguy]

Gotta run,,,but have enjoyed this thread, stimulating!! Happy and safe diving guys...