Pace of Cave Diving Instructional Progress

[diverdoug1]

Well, the cave community had for some unknown reason given the IUCRR permission to perform the body recoveries and smother the facts. Kinda hard to make relevant conclusions since all of us are going off he said she said on all these accidents.



Either the CDS or NACD added it for a short time, and then removed it once the BOD changed.


Well, I'm going to exclude divers who went beyond training, because I consider that somewhat irrelevant. Here's a few of the higher profile ones that everyone might be familiar with.

• Steve Berman died after tons of experience in Ginnie while mapping. It's been said he had an abnormal amount of survey data for one dive. It's one of the most controversial deaths in cave diving, so I'll limit my commentary to this-- after speaking with numerous individuals, I do believe a buddy would have thumbed the dive before the OOA that occurred.
• Mark Fyvie died in Ginnie after overstaying his gas supply while surveying, and then fiddled with a flooded breather until he had exhausted his gas supply. Had he had 80cu ft of gas, he would have survived, so he either grossly overstayed his gas or else played too long with broken gear, a buddy would likely have thumbed it.
• Recent Vortex death. Do you think a buddy would have went along with a deep air dive while scootering in a low silty area of the cave? I would have applied Rule #1 at the fill station if it were me and I had heard deep air and restrictive in the same sentence.
• Ron Simmons death in Allen Mill Pond. Tangled and out of gas on a dive which really could have never happened with a buddy. An earlier dive in the same area caused him to return very low on gas.
• Agnes Milowka - Died with only one tank on her. Once again, I believe that a 2nd brain would have thumbed the dive.

If you take a look at buddy deaths and exclude medical causes as well as untrained divers, you'll be hard pressed to find trained cave divers who have died as part of a buddy team. You can use Bruce's death at Ginnie, Jim Millers death which was a very clear error but he still would have made the same mistake solo, and Parker Turner's cave collapse death. There have been a few guided deaths in MX, but I don't know anything about those since I'm not local and the details aren't posted.

Given your above comments , do you feel that the MAIN benefit of requiring a buddy would be a second diver being there to thumb the dive before things got dicey? Or someone to help bail out a diver who has a problem? (of couse it will play a part in both)

 

[Xenia]

JamesK, maybe I am reading too much in your reply. I agree, this is not data but just a presentation with conclusions, no statistics to back it up.

James, I thought you had learned in school to distinguish between statistical populations and 5 individual cases. Just because some of these are recent, it does not mean they are a representative population of statistics that can lead to a conclusion, much more a rule for cave diving.

Here is some data:

1. Wayne's World, Nov. 2008: 2 victims, dive buddies
2. Los Archos, Nov. 2007: 3 out of 12 students deceased
3. The Crack, July 2007: team of 3, one deceased
4. Peacock III, Jan. 2005: victim cavern certified, with 2 dive buddies
5. Sac Actun, Dec. 2004: team of three, one deceased
6. Ginnie, Aug. 2004: one victim, two dive buddies
7. Eagles Nest, June 2004: two people deceased
8. Little River, 2003: team of two, one deceased
9. Devil's, 2002: team of 3, one deceased
10. Little River, 2002: team of two, one deceased
11. Jackson Blue, 2001: team of two, one deceased
12. Clarcsville Cave, 2001: team of three, one deceased
13. Royal, 2001: two people deceased
14. Cypress creek, 2001: team of two, one deceased
15. Emerald, 2001: group, one deceased
16. Sabak Ha, 2000: team of two, one deceased
17. Little River, 2000: team of two, one deceased
18. Forty Fathom, 1999: team of two, one deceased
19. Madison, 1999: two people deceased


Plus a couple of recent ones not published yet:
20. death at Peacock in 2010, intro diver got disoriented, with a team that could not convince her she was not going to the exit,
21. Jim Miller from WKPP.

I know I have missed a number of them, but this starts to build a real statistical population.

 

[Bobby]

DogHouseDiver,
I see the point you are trying to make and I am not saying you are wrong. For me I would rather not be Don Quixote. We are a self regulated sport and the industry has accepted places like Blue Grotto, Devils Den, & Ginnie Spring as safe for OW divers to enter the caverns. At least they have videos and inform the divers about why these places are accepted and other caverns are not.

Tao has shown that they are taking precautions and will seek training when his son is of age and maturity. What I think a lot of cave and technical divers forget is the perspective from the OW divers side. We come off as elitists and having an attitude. It doesn't matter that most of us are not intentionally displaying that attitude, it still is what comes across. Bearing down on someone that has already demonstrated that they are taking over head diving seriously and will seek out training only reinforces a lot of OW divers view point that we, as technical and cave divers, are blowing hot air to boost our own ego.

Lets be honest, presently we have a much bigger problem of certified cave diver incidents compared to OW divers in caves. If you would put half the energy you put towards OW divers into trying to curb that problem we might start to get it under control. Please lets not make excuses like the incidents are from divers going beyond their training or experience. That is kind of obvious as if they stayed within their training and experience the entire community would be shouting to the roof tops that we need to figure out what is wrong with our present rules. Instead it is simpler to just say "I would never push past the rules or my experience" and move on.

I applaud that you are trying to convey the real risk. As I said though in the first paragraph it does no good to be Don Quixote and chase wind mills. The industry has long ago accepted these sites as OW safe. The rest of the OW divers that read this and have their beliefs confirmed about technical and cave divers being gas bags does far more damage.

Bobby

#1 Except get trained, which is the basis of all the other rules and drills you claim to follow.

#2 By definition of overhead, and with no free ascent to surface, there is no such thing as an "ow safe cavern"... If its a cavern, by definition its not "ow safe". Which if you were trained, you'd know.

I understand and appreciate what you are trying to do, but bending rules now may lead to more later, when you are not there to supervise.

Better question, if you have a problem and can't get out (heart attack, embolism, entanglement, heck anything), are you prepared to have your son stay past his reserves and maybe die himself trying to save dad? In the same scenario if he makes it out, are you prepared to have him be your pall bearer? Better question, is the rest of the family prepared for either? Do you want to strap your son with that guilt because you wanted to poke around caverns before being trained?

Get training dude, its that simple.

I've seen the look of a dead man in one of your ow safe caverns as I descended upon him like the angel of whatever god he was praying to when he ran out of air, pinned himself to the ceiling, and clawed his fingers into limestone clawing nails off trying to get out.... One never forgets those eyes.... I know the recovery divers have seen them...Kevin has seen them on his rescue too... My friend, you don't ever want to see that look in your child! I saved him, you may not be so lucky.

Get trained.

Or theorize your way to your death(s). It may never happen, but could you forgive yourself if it did?

Get trained.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2012 at 06:22 AM ----------

James,
You make some rather poor examples here. I knew Steve well, considered him a friend, and was first introduced to the overhead by him. It was not solo diving that caused this incident and any buddy that would have agreed to the dive plans would have most likely gotten them in trouble long before Steve's incident.

• Steve Berman died after tons of experience in Ginnie while mapping. It's been said he had an abnormal amount of survey data for one dive. It's one of the most controversial deaths in cave diving, so I'll limit my commentary to this-- after speaking with numerous individuals, I do believe a buddy would have thumbed the dive before the OOA that occurred.

Marc was way beyond his experience level. He was warned by multiple people that his dive plan was beyond his capability and that the plan was not sound as well. Any dive buddy that would have agreed to the plan most likely would have put them in more trouble.

• Mark Fyvie died in Ginnie after overstaying his gas supply while surveying, and then fiddled with a flooded breather until he had exhausted his gas supply. Had he had 80cu ft of gas, he would have survived, so he either grossly overstayed his gas or else played too long with broken gear, a buddy would likely have thumbed it.

Now this incident a buddy might have been able to help. Then again a buddy might have led to a double fatality instead of one. I don't know and I highly doubt you know either. As to performing the dive there have been far too many incidents with buddy teams to say that a buddy could not have been found for this dive. In the end I believe we both know the motivating force behind this being a solo dive.

• Recent Vortex death. Do you think a buddy would have went along with a deep air dive while scootering in a low silty area of the cave? I would have applied Rule #1 at the fill station if it were me and I had heard deep air and restrictive in the same sentence.

Again with a buddy this might have been as easily a double fatality as a buddy saving the day. We just don't know, but we do know from his logs that gas reserves were an issue on previous dives and this falls more easily into the gas management rule than solo diving as the cause of the incident.

• Ron Simmons death in Allen Mill Pond. Tangled and out of gas on a dive which really could have never happened with a buddy. An earlier dive in the same area caused him to return very low on gas.

Considering that this was a team dive it actually counters your point completely. The buddy did not thumb the dive and actually went on to finish the dive on their own and only alerted others after surfacing and finding that she had not.

• Agnes Milowka - Died with only one tank on her. Once again, I believe that a 2nd brain would have thumbed the dive.

This is way off the original topic yet I have a hard time leaving the solo topic due to the rather poor reasoning given against it. There are not only many times when I believe that solo diving is safer than team diving but also makes stronger team divers as well. The reliance on a buddy has many facets that open the door for incidents. I believe that there would be far fewer incidents if every diver judged every dive by whether they would perform the dive solo.

Bobby

 

[ucfdiver]

Well, I'm going to exclude divers who went beyond training, because I consider that somewhat irrelevant.

Well, to be fair, you totally ignored my commentary.

JamesK, maybe I am reading too much in your reply. I agree, this is not data but just a presentation with conclusions, no statistics to back it up.

James, I thought you had learned in school to distinguish between statistical populations and 5 individual cases. Just because some of these are recent, it does not mean they are a representative population of statistics that can lead to a conclusion, much more a rule for cave diving.

Here is some data:

1. Wayne's World, Nov. 2008: 2 victims, dive buddies - One had failed cavern 2x, the other was intro
2. Los Archos, Nov. 2007: 3 out of 12 students deceased - Not familiar with this one
3. The Crack, July 2007: team of 3, one deceased - Medical, Oxtox within established guidelines.
4. Peacock III, Jan. 2005: victim cavern certified, with 2 dive buddies - Intro diver beyond cert limits, doing 180 on air
5. Sac Actun, Dec. 2004: team of three, one deceased- Not familiar with this one
6. Ginnie, Aug. 2004: one victim, two dive buddies - I believe this one was the solo, intoxicated diver with no cave training.
7. Eagles Nest, June 2004: two people deceased - Terrible gas choices, and one buddy even commented that he wouldn't dive with the other one again after their sneak dive at Dipolar, for fear he could end up dead. However it was a buddy team, I'll give you this one.
8. Little River, 2003: team of two, one deceased - What was the victim's training level? I can't find it...
9. Devil's, 2002: team of 3, one deceased - Oxtox perhaps? Either way from the accident report it sounds as if the buddies got the victim alive out of the cave and CPR was attempted.
10. Little River, 2002: team of two, one deceased - Buddy pulled them out of the cave after a medical incident in a cave, giving them a fighting chance and was air lifted to shands.
11. Jackson Blue, 2001: team of two, one deceased - I don't know anything about this one, but from the report it sounds like gas issues which weren't solved by a buddy team, I'll give you this one.
12. Clarcsville Cave, 2001: team of three, one deceased - Unfamiliar with this death
13. Royal, 2001: two people deceased - Two OW divers, one within a week of class went into one of the nastiest caves around.
14. Cypress creek, 2001: team of two, one deceased - Unfamiliar with this death.
15. Emerald, 2001: group, one deceased - OW Divemaster diving deep air beyond training.
16. Sabak Ha, 2000: team of two, one deceased- Unfamiliar with this death.
17. Little River, 2000: team of two, one deceased - Intro divers scootering beyond where even full cave divers would scooter.
18. Forty Fathom, 1999: team of two, one deceased- deep air to 200ft. Well beyond any established training parameters.
19. Madison, 1999: two people deceased - Seem to be both trained, I'll give you this one


Plus a couple of recent ones not published yet:
20. death at Peacock in 2010, intro diver got disoriented, with a team that could not convince her she was not going to the exit, - Intro diver going beyond training limits
21. Jim Miller from WKPP. - I gave you this one in my original post.

I know I have missed a number of them, but this starts to build a real statistical population.

Excluding the Mexico incidents which I have no information on, it looks like you've come up with 6 buddy deaths, which aren't due to violation of training limits. I don't think showing a list which includes intoxicated ow divers who died in caves is very relevant to the topic of trained cave divers being safer with a buddy.

Considering that this was a team dive it actually counters your point completely. The buddy did not thumb the dive and actually went on to finish the dive on their own and only alerted others after surfacing and finding that she had not.

Oh C'mon Bobby, as much as I value your opinion on many topics, in this case we ALL know what was going on here. People do the same thing at Peacock (including the Victim!). Two buddies get in the water together to make it look as if they're following landowner rules and then wait for each other in the cavern.

James,
You make some rather poor examples here. I knew Steve well, considered him a friend, and was first introduced to the overhead by him. It was not solo diving that caused this incident and any buddy that would have agreed to the dive plans would have most likely gotten them in trouble long before Steve's incident.

I'm sure there were some other things going on in his mind about the next day that might have caused a distraction. While I didn't know Steve all that well personally, I've spent more time asking about this incident than any other, mainly because his stepson was a classmate, played on my bball team, and was a close friend during school years. I would prefer not to discuss any further details in public (email me if you'd like, Bobby), but I'm certain you would agree that the chance his mind was distracted on that dive was high.

 

[PfcAJ]

Me thinks that Xenia doesn't understand statistics.

 

[bleeb]

Sure, it would go something like this. "We practiced harder than any father and son team could have. We did all the drills and took every precaution.

One problem that struck me with the original comment was that although this un-cave-trained diver talked about practising and doing a lot of drills, I don't recall seeing anything about any of those exercises being techniques required for cavern or cave diving. Too lazy to re-read the entire thread, but it seemed what they were practising were basic OW skills, and not things like running line, finding lost lines, mask-less air-sharing exits in zero vis, etc. Did anyone see any statements that would imply otherwise?

And of particular relevance, some of these skills are best learned under the tutelage of someone who can do and teach them well. Teaching yourself is generally seems to be seen as a good way to learn bad habits and make carrying them out badly more reflexive.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2012 at 11:47 AM ----------

Here is some data:

1. Wayne's World, Nov. 2008: 2 victims, dive buddies
2. Los Archos, Nov. 2007: 3 out of 12 students deceased
3. The Crack, July 2007: team of 3, one deceased
4. Peacock III, Jan. 2005: victim cavern certified, with 2 dive buddies
5. Sac Actun, Dec. 2004: team of three, one deceased
6. Ginnie, Aug. 2004: one victim, two dive buddies
7. Eagles Nest, June 2004: two people deceased
8. Little River, 2003: team of two, one deceased
9. Devil's, 2002: team of 3, one deceased
10. Little River, 2002: team of two, one deceased
11. Jackson Blue, 2001: team of two, one deceased
12. Clarcsville Cave, 2001: team of three, one deceased
13. Royal, 2001: two people deceased
14. Cypress creek, 2001: team of two, one deceased
15. Emerald, 2001: group, one deceased
16. Sabak Ha, 2000: team of two, one deceased
17. Little River, 2000: team of two, one deceased
18. Forty Fathom, 1999: team of two, one deceased
19. Madison, 1999: two people deceased


Plus a couple of recent ones not published yet:
20. death at Peacock in 2010, intro diver got disoriented, with a team that could not convince her she was not going to the exit,
21. Jim Miller from WKPP.

I know I have missed a number of them, but this starts to build a real statistical population.

Actually, I think you're trying to measure the wrong thing. If the goal is to estimate whether solo or buddy cave diving is more probable to result in a fatality, you need to be looking at how many accidents or serious near misses were resolved by the presence of a buddy that would have been fatal without one, compared to the number that were actually caused by a buddy. The latter has to exclude fatalities in the presence of a buddy if the buddy didn't actually significantly contribute to causing the accident. (ufc's breakdown of this list touched on part of this.)

 

[diverdoug1]

Oh C'mon Bobby, as much as I value your opinion on many topics, in this case we ALL know what was going on here. People do the same thing at Peacock (including the Victim!). Two buddies get in the water together to make it look as if they're following landowner rules and then wait for each other in the cavern.
.

You are correct, Agnes was alone for the last portion of her dive. I was lucky enough to call her a friend while she was with us, and she is perhaps part of the reason for my original post in this thread.

 

[Dive-aholic]

To be fair, the 5 rules are very far outdated. Who do you know that's died in the last 10 years for not having 2 backup lights? With the huge quantity of solo diving deaths why don't we add that?

This statement just shows your ignorance regarding the guidelines. The light guideline has evolved into properly maintained equipment, but out of respect for Sheck and Wes, we keep it as lights/equipment. When the guideline was formulated it was because of the types of lights that were being used. We didn't have all the fancy canister lights and LEDs we have now. The lights being used then ran off of motorcycles batteries. The back up lights were sealed in plastic bags. What I teach my students regarding that guideline is to make sure they have properly maintained equipment that is serviced regularly and as needed.


And as far as the solo argument goes, every solo death that has occurred has been a result of violating other guidelines and the divers just happened to be solo. Sure you can argue they wouldn't have been violating the other guidelines had they not been solo. My challenge to you is to prove it.



Tao, there is no such thing as an OW safe cavern. Caverns are overhead environments not open water environments. While land owners will classify "their" caverns as open water safe for monetary reasons, it really isn't so. You are just tempting fate, as is every other non-overhead trained diver who ventures into the overhead is.

 

[ucfdiver]

This statement just shows your ignorance regarding the guidelines. The light guideline has evolved into properly maintained equipment, but out of respect for Sheck and Wes, we keep it as lights/equipment. When the guideline was formulated it was because of the types of lights that were being used. We didn't have all the fancy canister lights and LEDs we have now. The lights being used then ran off of motorcycles batteries. The back up lights were sealed in plastic bags. What I teach my students regarding that guideline is to make sure they have properly maintained equipment that is serviced regularly and as needed.

I don't mind being "ignorant" to the guidelines, since a ton of recent deaths haven't fallen under them. Sheck got to do his own accident analysis for himself, and I reserve that same right, since it's my life on the line.

Leaving a rule outdated to "honor" someone is a rather odd idea. Why don't we just update the rule, if that's what it mean? I for one, consider leaving training standards outdated incredibly disrespectful to those who established them in an effort to make everyone safe. Just like I don't think Buhlmann is being disrespected when VPM-B was developed, I don't think those two are being disrespected by furthering their research...

The fact health hasn't cracked the top 5 yet and accounts for the majority of diving accidents these days speaks volumes. If I were to redo them (for trained cave divers), I think I would go with the following. Admittedly it's difficult to order them because you have to decide do you go off how often the rule is broken, how often it results in a death, or how likely it is to be broken and result in a death (IE if it's broken 10,000 times and has 10 fatalities it would be #1 for how many deaths, but still low likely hood).

1. Diving without a recent medical (IE undiagnosed health issues)
2. Violation of training guidelines
3. Failure to maintain sufficient breathing gas reserves for the dive
4. Solo Diving
5. Diving > 100ft END
6. Failure to maintain a continuous guideline to the surface.
7. Improper gear for the dive

And as far as the solo argument goes, every solo death that has occurred has been a result of violating other guidelines and the divers just happened to be solo. Sure you can argue they wouldn't have been violating the other guidelines had they not been solo. My challenge to you is to prove it.

This is a bogus request, which you're well aware. Prove to me that drunk driving causes accidents, you can't. It's always a missed turn or running a red light or following too close.

 

[LiteHedded]

why is it so hard for solo divers to admit that it's a bit more risky than diving with a qualified buddy most of the time?