Pace of Cave Diving Instructional Progress

[JamesK]

Statistically there are more fatalities involved with buddies than solo divers. Now prove the null that it is not statistically safer to solo dive.

JamesK, this is just a presentation of conclusions. Where is the actual data, the numbers, the individual cases where Bozanic extracted these data? If you find it please post it... but I highly doubt you will. Bozanic has had multiple requests to reveal the data from which he extracts his conclusions but he has not.

You are right. It is just a presentation of conclusions. I never said anything else. I also know that I will never find that data because the IUCRR doesn't seem to release data anymore. All I did was state that I am pretty sure that Bozanic did try to add it, and that I used to have the presentation. Where you are coming up anything other then that from my two sentence statement is beyond me.

 

[Xenia]

Did you notice that in the original post I asked about data that would back up the request of adding solo diving to the rules that were made out of accident analysis?

Then you and AJ started talking about a "presentation". That is not data.

 

[JamesK]

Xenia,

You are reading WAY to much in to my post. I was simply posting in regards to something that AJ said. He stated:

Didnt Bozanic try and add solo to the list? It should be on there, imo.

Then I followed up with:

I am pretty sure he did. I had his presentation somewhere, but I can't seem to find it anymore.

I am confused as to how you get anymore than that out of it? I never said anything about it being data. I simply answered a question. I did not even state if I was for or against solo diving, and if it should be added on to the list or not.

 

[ucfdiver]

Statistically there are more fatalities involved with buddies than solo divers. Now prove the null that it is not statistically safer to solo dive.

JamesK, this is just a presentation of conclusions. Where is the actual data, the numbers, the individual cases where Bozanic extracted these data? If you find it please post it... but I highly doubt you will. Bozanic has had multiple requests to reveal the data from which he extracts his conclusions but he has not.

Well, the cave community had for some unknown reason given the IUCRR permission to perform the body recoveries and smother the facts. Kinda hard to make relevant conclusions since all of us are going off he said she said on all these accidents.

Didnt Bozanic try and add solo to the list? It should be on there, imo.

Either the CDS or NACD added it for a short time, and then removed it once the BOD changed.

What is your statistical basis for wanting that added?

Well, I'm going to exclude divers who went beyond training, because I consider that somewhat irrelevant. Here's a few of the higher profile ones that everyone might be familiar with.

• Steve Berman died after tons of experience in Ginnie while mapping. It's been said he had an abnormal amount of survey data for one dive. It's one of the most controversial deaths in cave diving, so I'll limit my commentary to this-- after speaking with numerous individuals, I do believe a buddy would have thumbed the dive before the OOA that occurred.
• Mark Fyvie died in Ginnie after overstaying his gas supply while surveying, and then fiddled with a flooded breather until he had exhausted his gas supply. Had he had 80cu ft of gas, he would have survived, so he either grossly overstayed his gas or else played too long with broken gear, a buddy would likely have thumbed it.
• Recent Vortex death. Do you think a buddy would have went along with a deep air dive while scootering in a low silty area of the cave? I would have applied Rule #1 at the fill station if it were me and I had heard deep air and restrictive in the same sentence.
• Ron Simmons death in Allen Mill Pond. Tangled and out of gas on a dive which really could have never happened with a buddy. An earlier dive in the same area caused him to return very low on gas.
• Agnes Milowka - Died with only one tank on her. Once again, I believe that a 2nd brain would have thumbed the dive.

If you take a look at buddy deaths and exclude medical causes as well as untrained divers, you'll be hard pressed to find trained cave divers who have died as part of a buddy team. You can use Bruce's death at Ginnie, Jim Millers death which was a very clear error but he still would have made the same mistake solo, and Parker Turner's cave collapse death. There have been a few guided deaths in MX, but I don't know anything about those since I'm not local and the details aren't posted.

 

[diverdoug1]

UCFdiver, while I don't always agree with you, you make an very good point about the IUCRR being less than forthcoming with accident analysis. This was not always the case.

 

[ucfdiver]

I wouldn't call them outdated,but needing some modernization. The basic rules have served well,but there could be some axioms added to this list. You bring up solo diving,and should that be on there? In fairness it should with a better definition. I think something that has been around a long time,"don't dive with strokes" should be on there. I might take this to mean don't dive with someone that unsafer or reckless. There is good advice in these tenants,and having a longer list wouldn't be a bad thing.

George was a pretty smart guy, with lots of good advice. I had the opportunity to go diving with him late last year and really enjoyed myself, one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, but he really takes scuba deaths personally and i think that's why he went to the extreme on forums. As I learned from talking to him, I don't think to this day he can accept the fact that friends have died doing stupid things he wishes he could have talked them out of. He would have benefited from a PR manager, but Rule #1 would have prevented lots of deaths (heck, even recently look at the Waynes World incident).

Threads like this make me cringe. (For those of you who don't know, Mainland is over 3000ft back in Ginnie)
Ginnie today May 14

Looking for buddy today. Oc, dpv, stage (Mainland?)

 

[JamesK]

Threads like this make me cringe. (For those of you who don't know, Mainland is over 3000ft back in Ginnie)
Ginnie today May 14

I agree. I would not even consider that dive with someone I was not 100% familiar with. If I am diving with someone new, it is intro level dives until we are very comfortable with each other. Heck. On our first dive we are playing in the cavern or in the run for a little while before making our way in so I can make sure we are good.

 

[DogHouseDiver]

I know man, thanks for your concern. But we would not be there if we were not taking every precaution we could........


.....and that applies to "OW safe" cavern dives.

#1 Except get trained, which is the basis of all the other rules and drills you claim to follow.

#2 By definition of overhead, and with no free ascent to surface, there is no such thing as an "ow safe cavern"... If its a cavern, by definition its not "ow safe". Which if you were trained, you'd know.

I understand and appreciate what you are trying to do, but bending rules now may lead to more later, when you are not there to supervise.

Better question, if you have a problem and can't get out (heart attack, embolism, entanglement, heck anything), are you prepared to have your son stay past his reserves and maybe die himself trying to save dad? In the same scenario if he makes it out, are you prepared to have him be your pall bearer? Better question, is the rest of the family prepared for either? Do you want to strap your son with that guilt because you wanted to poke around caverns before being trained?

Get training dude, its that simple.

I've seen the look of a dead man in one of your ow safe caverns as I descended upon him like the angel of whatever god he was praying to when he ran out of air, pinned himself to the ceiling, and clawed his fingers into limestone clawing nails off trying to get out.... One never forgets those eyes.... I know the recovery divers have seen them...Kevin has seen them on his rescue too... My friend, you don't ever want to see that look in your child! I saved him, you may not be so lucky.

Get trained.

Or theorize your way to your death(s). It may never happen, but could you forgive yourself if it did?

Get trained.

 

[diverdoug1]

Or theorize your way to your death(s). It may never happen, but could you forgive yourself if it did?

Sure, it would go something like this. "We practiced harder than any father and son team could have. We did all the drills and took every precaution. He was an exceptional diver that was better prepared than any of those touristy type divers we always saw down there. It was just one of those unforseeable accidents. Even those cave divers on Scubaboard defended us when someone insinuated that we were not being safe. His mother and I just take comfort knowing that little Johnny died doing what he loved!"
Survivors don't usually say,"I was a reckless dick, and I am responsible for the death of my dive buddy".

 

[karstdvr]

Didnt Bozanic try and add solo to the list? It should be on there, imo.

I think Jeff's data showed that the major causes of accidents are people exceeding their level of training/experience,and medical issues. I recall an article in the NACD Journal quite a few years ago suggesting solo diving as a safety rule. I don't think any agency/organization has ever made that an official rule.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2012 at 03:54 AM ----------

Ginnie today May 14

What makes me cringe is people desperate for a buddy will do this dive. I wouldn't do this dive with an unknown entity,our first dive would be an easy mainline swim.