Pace of Cave Diving Instructional Progress

[Superlyte27]

I don't want to speak for Jim, but he is aware of this thread. I just got off the phone with him and he absolutely does not teach minors. This is because of a supreme court ruling that basically states that a parent cannot relinquish the rights of a minor by signing a waiver of liability. So it basically plays out like this:
A parent and minor sign up for a class. The parent signs both waivers for parent and minor, releasing boats, instructors, stores, dive sites, etc. from liability. The minor has a tragic accident. According to the supreme court, all of those entities could still be liable for damages. Instructors are not willing to put themselves and their stores at risk, and I can't blame them.

As far as "safe caverns" go... I'm sure Jim will weigh in on that too, and I for one am interested in seeing it. My perspective is this: Is a non-cavern certified diver qualified to determine what a "safe cavern" is? Sure, I know what you're thinking, the non cavern certed diver is trusting the dive site management to make that determination or is trusting other divers to enlighten us on the perils. First, does the dive site have our best interests in heart or are they trying to make money? Secondly, if you are placing your faith in someone else's account that this is a "safe cavern" then doesn't that mean that this dive is nothing more than an ill placed trust me dive?

Ultimately, I think instructors are going to be unanimous in conveying that these guys need training and/or should stay out of caverns.

 

[Bobby]

To those that are bashing Tao,
His post clearly shows that he and his son are taking full appreciation of the risk even in an "Open Water Cavern". If you don't know sites like Blue Grotto, Devils Den, and Ginnie Spring then don't condemn him for something you don't understand. All of these sites are very clear on the differences in diving "OW Caverns" and regular caverns. He is on a good path and I believe he is doing everything possible to instill the proper mind set into his son.

Tao,
Thank you for your measured and patient responses. That alone shows that you are approaching cave diving with a solid attitude and doing the same with your son. Bravo!!!

When you and/or your son get cavern certified let me know if you want another buddy, I would be honored to dive with either of you.

Bobby

Well, I like to think my progression, and now that of my son is an earnest, sincere, diligent pace. We still have to wait a year and a half for him to turn 16 so we can take our cavern course. In the meantime, we continue to dive in caverns that people have claimed are "Open Water safe." I know, I know, most of us do not subscribe to that sort of thinking. Which is why I would not even let him enter into caverns until I knew he was able to do cave and cavern drills. Because I knew that oddly enough, his OW instructor chose Blue Grotto and Devils Den for his checkout dives... So I wanted to make doubly sure he would be safe. I've always dove these caverns, in fact "OW safe" caverns and black-water dives are all I know. My intent was always to go the legit route towards cavern, and cave, but I always held out, waiting for my son to be old enough to join me. I even waited to get him certified at 14 to make sure there were a few more years of maturity to him, before I strapped a tank on his back and called it good. Waiting for him I believe has served a dual purpose; it allowed me time to feel comfortable, to be ready to be his safety net. My son has shown a comfort in caverns and in the water in general that belies his age. His first time in a tight crawl in Devils Den, and his eyes were wide with amazement, and I knew that the cave bug had bit him like it bites the rest of us. But when he talks of caverns, there is a respect in his words, in his voice, that lets me know he is making the right choice for him. He misses the caverns when we are away, and yearns to return, even schemes up ways we can do a day trip or whatnot. So I know there is a love for them. And the discipline he is learning by having to wait for his cavern course is truly a virtue, and I remind him of the need for patience while cave diving, to never hurry the dive for the sake of hurrying it. But even as we drill in a darkened room, or in a pool, he knows what he is working towards, and it is a valued goal to him, and myself.

 

[Superlyte27]

Originally Posted by Tao of the Dive
His first time in a tight crawl in Devils Den, and his eyes were wide with amazement, and I knew that the cave bug had bit him. . .


I promise I know the sites in question. But more importantly, I know sites that are even more benign that have killed people. Anyone familiar with the small cavern at Crystal River? It's what 30' deep and about 30' of penetration. People have died there. Anyone familiar with Blue Springs in Orange City? It's just a fissure almost straight down, one way in, one way out, people die there frequently.

The training is there for a reason. Use it. There are stupid places to get into at Devil's Den that are tight swim throughs surrounded by silt. Is it possible to silt this swimthrough and panick at 15 years old new in his diving hobby? Absolutely, and if you think there isn't a chance, you're being an imbecile. There are places in Blue Grotto with no surface light. The cave diving rules I live by don't say anything about "if there's a 1" rope in there..."

Ultimately though, what do I care. I don't know you or your kid. I'm not your dad, or his. Do whatever you want, you'll probably be okay. I personally don't risk the lives of my children on "probably". But I suspect I like mine more than you do.


*edit At any rate, I'm done. I've voiced my view. I'm not sure why I was so passionate about this topic this time. These types of threads are not rare where 20 people try to explain the dangers and no one listens. I don't usually comment, not sure why I did this time. Perhaps just boredom. He'll live or he'll die. Either way, it doesn't affect me much anyway. Next time, I promise I'll do more reading and less typing ​

 

[diverdoug1]

To those that are bashing Tao

Bobby

A number of concerned posters, including two cave instructors, try to keep an OW diver and his son out of caverns and caves untill they get trained, and it is called bashing? In the cave diving forum? Really??? Once again, this was the whole point of the OP. Cave divers used to present a united front when it came to expressing the foolishness of diving ANY overhead without propper training and equipment. The cavalier attitudes shown by some of this thread's posters is disappointing.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I’m still on the fence about this. I see the point: caverns can be deadly. But, I don’t agree with the bashing of Tao.

Fact: Caverns kill people.
Fact: Most caverns have a cave zone.
Fact: All it takes is 2” of open water to drown a person

I think we have two issues here:
-Diving in “open water safe” cavern zones without an overhead certification
-Taking a minor into a cavern

Both issues can and have been problems in the past, ie, OW divers die in caverns, and minors die in scuba. It happens.

The Ballroom…I’ve done about a hundred dives in here, most about an hour long. Before my cavern class my buddy and I ran tons of drills on ourselves in there, things like lights out air shares, things we probably shouldn’t have done without an instructor present, but we did it safely, I’d say.

Superlyte, you point out that there are different levels of risk in the caverns, or caves. Each cavern has “safer” areas and “less safe” areas. You say Tao is an imbecile for not recognizing this. I think he has recognized it, and he stays in the “safer” areas. I could be wrong.

You also say that instructors will be unanimous in stating that OW divers should stay out of caverns. Funny then how the NACD keeps sending Ginnie Springs Outdoors LLC nice certificates and things to put on their walls, thanking them for being such great people. They don’t do a thing to show that they are even mildly concerned about Ginnie’s business practice of letting OW divers go into the Ballroom.

Every few months we bash someone on here for diving there with an OW cert, but I’ve never seen a single instructor or regular Joe boycott Ginnie, Blue Grotto, Hudson Grotto, Kings Spring, or Devil’s Den over the practice. Never seen a sign posted in the entrance of the Ballroom by any agency warning of the dangers. Never a billboard put up on the roadway warning OW divers not to dive in the overhead. Never an event on a weekend focused on showing OW divers what cavern class is about.

I can’t throw a stone here, because like most of us, I dove in the Ballroom without an overhead certification.

Go down some weekend and spend the day counting the number of people who go into the ballroom, vs. the number of people who go into the Devil’s system. Assume that the same amount go in the other weekend day, and that 0 go into either during the week. Sum and multiply by 52 to get a rough number of yearly visitors. Add up the number of fatalities for each system for the last 5 years, then divided by 5 to get average annual fatalities. Then, divide average system fatalities by rough estimate of yearly visitors, and then you can keep yelling at Tao.

 

[diverdoug1]

Minimizing the importance of safety standards because of a low fatality rate, flys in the face of responsible cave/cavern practices. Remeber "The Good Divers Are Living"? The big five? Training/Guide Line/Depth/Air/Lights? Sound familiar? Which one comes first? We used to call divers who did not RELIGIOUSLY follow these five rules STROKES. Not sure what the derivation of the term was, but it was certainly an epithet. Someone can choose to go into caverns and caves without training, flaunting long-standing safety standards. Just like I could take-off in my plane without doing a pre-flight. Sure, I will probably survive, but it would be foolhardy to take such a risk. If I took a loved one who trusted me up as a passenger under those same circumstances, I would not only be foolhardy, I would be selfishly reckless with the lives of others.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

You mean the guidelines which were built with the fatality statistics? The guidelines that ignore the things that only kill sometimes?

Proper training depends on the dive, if that was your point. Otherwise see my historically correct sarcastic explanation of the bell curve applied to life above.

I really do tend to agree, I just think it's a complex issue and if we really think the big three are dangerous we should do more than complain on here.

Very similar to the Cenote tours which should be very dangerous but in actuality tend to be pretty safe.

 

[ucfdiver]

Minimizing the importance of safety standards because of a low fatality rate, flys in the face of responsible cave/cavern practices. Remeber "The Good Divers Are Living"? The big five? Training/Guide Line/Depth/Air/Lights? Sound familiar? Which one comes first? We used to call divers who did not RELIGIOUSLY follow these five rules STROKES. Not sure what the derivation of the term was, but it was certainly an epithet. Someone can choose to go into caverns and caves without training, flaunting long-standing safety standards. Just like I could take-off in my plane without doing a pre-flight. Sure, I will probably survive, but it would be foolhardy to take such a risk. If I took a loved one who trusted me up as a passenger under those same circumstances, I would not only be foolhardy, I would be selfishly reckless with the lives of others.

To be fair, the 5 rules are very far outdated. Who do you know that's died in the last 10 years for not having 2 backup lights? With the huge quantity of solo diving deaths why don't we add that?

 

[diverdoug1]

This is not a complex issue at all. Tao is not only cavern diving, he has been cave diving in the ambient light zone. He is doing so with out the training or equipment to do so, and therefore proscribed by the NSS-CDS, NACD, and IANTD. If he wishes to thumb his nose at thier safety gudielines so be it. If he wishes to decrease the risk to his son and himself by staying within the rules that these agencies have set, they must stay out of any overhead environment (even if OK'd by the JahJahwarrior school of diving), untill they are trained and eqipped.

---------- Post added May 14th, 2012 at 04:44 PM ----------

To be fair, the 5 rules are very far outdated. Who do you know that's died in the last 10 years for not having 2 backup lights?

Nobody, because it is rare to have cave divers dive without at least 2 back-up lights. The reason it is rare for cave divers to dive without at least 2 back-up lights is, they are following that "outdated" rule.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

And yet it is a complex issue. It’s not enough to write off anything that’s not in a direct sunbeam as a cave.

Let us ask, why do we have guidelines? To prevent bad things from happening. To meet that goal, we look at the bad things that happen, and make a list of them all. The ones that occur most often, we put in the guideline list of things not to do if you want to live. This means that some things kill people, but not in enough numbers to make them earn a spot on the guidelines. Others are hard to put on the guidelines. We lost two divers in the last few years who seemed to just “get confused.” Hard to put “don’t get confused” on the guidelines. Additionally, we lose divers due to medical reasons, also hard to put on the guidelines. We stick to the things we can prevent, such as confusion or medical issue due to lack of light, lack of a line, lack of training, of an improper gas mixture for that depth.

Since Sheck created the original guidelines we’ve had much more accident history to analyze, and the parameters of the sport have changed as well.

In both the United States and Mexico we have people who dive in overhead without a certification: “open water safe” caverns, and “cenote tours.” Both seem like a recipe for disaster, but it is not nearly so cut and dried.

Yes, some divers do perish in caverns. But, the most popular caverns have the most dangerous parts, or the parts where there is cave access, grated off. At the Ballroom, there are only a few spots where you can’t see the entrance, and I WOULD say that Tao should avoid those parts. (Tao, if you are reading, please know that you should never be in part of a cavern where you can’t see the entrance. Not daylight, but the entrance.) However, even in those places, it’s not very difficult to navigate out, and you reach deadends pretty quickly. Since so few divers perish in these caverns, and since such a huge number of divers visit these caverns, with the death rates approaching or equal to that of open water divers in open water, it doesn’t make sense to bar them from diving there.

You have picked a very technical definition of what constitutes a cave. I dive at a bridge which blocks direct sunlight, but it doesn’t make it a cave. At Jug Hole you can be in open water but out of direct sunlight… The ballroom never sees direct sunlight, making it entirely a cave. But, the cave instructors consistently tell their cavern students that their certification allows them to dive in the ballroom. What’s the deal?

In the last few years, I think the fatality numbers at Peacock have been higher than those for the Ballroom, Blue Grotto, Hudson Grotto, King’s Spring, Jug Hole, Buford, and Devil’s Den put together!

I have to think that the cave diving agencies agree with me, as they go out of their way to honor the business that you accuse of letting people dive in caves without training. But, they do work very hard to put warning signs up at the “real” caves. Clearly, they see Devil’s Eye and Ear as being more dangerous than the Ballroom.

I’d like to start a poll just to see how many of us high and mighty cave divers dove in the Ballroom as open water divers. I think it’s a majority of us.