Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[mjatkins]

I don't think so...my certs are mostly PADI, but I have had the impression PADI courses are relatively weak, compared to NAUI, GUE, and a few others.

They are geared towards getting the most people certed and making the max money for that. (nothing inherently wrong with that, but the course requirements are far from rigorous, lets not kid ourselves)

If you have the experience to make these statements as fact, and the ability to back up these assertions on a point by point basis, then I look forward to debating them with you (as I feel you are wrong). If you do not, and you simply "have had the impression" about some things, it seems quite irresponsible to making statements disparaging any organization because you think you might have an idea about something.

Thanks

 

[Cacia]

Who are you, the PADI police?

I can say anything I like about PADI. I have nothing against PADI, I have taken many of their courses. The coursework is not rigorous, the books have very little substantive material, I believe. I have the Master Diver and the Divemaster rating and I found the courses somewhat weak in comparison to the course outlines I have seen from other agencies. (I think the AOW course should provide more to divers paying for the course.)

PADI certainly has their place, they facilitate more people into the ocean, families spending time together, enjoying nature, etc. PADI has many excellent instructors, many I know personally. I think it is a function of the market though...PADI is very large. If I wanted to choose a different agency for certifications, it would be problematic as there are not many in the area where I live.

I would like to see PADI standards for certifications raised, I have the right and the experience to speak on that.

It bothers me that many Divemasters cannot calculate percentages, yet somehow miraculously pass the written exam. The actual test could be ordered with the Instructor Manual by candidates, and I think that is very wrong. I don't know if this is still available, and I found out after I had studied and taken the test that many candidates had purchased/ obtained copies of the exam. Know anything about this?

the ability to back up these assertions on a point by point basis, then I look forward to debating them with you (as I feel you are wrong).

It is very tiresome and time consuming, but I have given a few examples.
I think a person who has had ten or so courses with any agency is free to say "My Impression..."

 

[amascuba]

If you have the experience to make these statements as fact, and the ability to back up these assertions on a point by point basis, then I look forward to debating them with you (as I feel you are wrong). If you do not, and you simply "have had the impression" about some things, it seems quite irresponsible to making statements disparaging any organization because you think you might have an idea about something.

Thanks

You're kidding right? The proof is in the pudding. Compare the PADI OW standards to the GUE or even NAUI OW standards and you will see that there is a huge difference. PADI only being a blemish compared to GUE and NAUI OW standards.

Beyond that PADI is a FOR profit organization. GUE on the otherhand is a Non-profit organization.

Both of those statements pretty much back up what Catherine stated.

 

[pir8]

I really get tired of hearing how so and so is a NON PROFIT org. I could be wrong but I think people are still making aliving from these NON PROFIT orgs. That smells like a profit to me!

 

[mjatkins]

You're kidding right? The proof is in the pudding. Compare the PADI OW standards to the GUE or even NAUI OW standards and you will see that there is a huge difference. PADI only being a blemish compared to GUE and NAUI OW standards.

Beyond that PADI is a FOR profit organization. GUE on the otherhand is a Non-profit organization.

Both of those statements pretty much back up what Catherine stated.

Well perhaps you could fill me in on the differences between the NAUI and PADI standards for OW certification, and highlight the huge difference of which you speak. I do not have a copy of the NAUI standards and as such can only go on the description of the course offered on NAUI's website. So I invite the debate and the lesson. And no, I obviously am not kidding.

Thanks

 

[serambin]

As mentioned above, all agencies have standards. What the agencies can not do is "police" each and every dive shop or dive operator or independent instructor. The best advice has been given, contact the agency and inform them of your issue.

Both PADI and NAUI will mail the c-cards where the instructor states. I've alway's informed my students the c-card will be mailed to the shop. If a student has an issue with this they need to inform me so that appropriate measures can be taken. However, when I lived in the islands c-cards were mailed to the address given to me by the students. Again, they were informed of this up front.

Course material. The trend is shifting to cheap. For example; shop A quotes a cost of X for such and such course and shop B quotes a cost of XY for the same course, 90% of the public will go to shop A because it is "cheaper". Shop A does not include the books and shop B does. Very few people will research or inquire to find out what is included and not included in the cost. In many markets where there is competition many shops will not offer books to attract the business. Here in lies the problem; who is responsible....the dive shop giving you every bit of detailed information or the consumer making the proper inquiries?

When I worked for American Airlines I conducted a small experiment. I worked in a department that could book any airline. I would quote the complete cost and all the rules of one airline then quote the price (listed in advertisement) of another airline that did not include all the little surcharges. Both airlines offered a flight departing within minutes of each other and were none stop. 3 out of 4 people would book the latter without finding out details. In the end they would end up paying a few dollars more because they didn't ask questions or didn't listen to all the details given to them.

Sadly, there is a catch 22. Customers do not research or listen and business's do not want to give out complete information for fear of loosing business to a competitor.

Good luck.

Chris

I take exception to this part of your reply. "What the agencies can not do is "police" each and every dive shop or dive operator or independent instructor." Indeed, what are agencies for? This is, in fact, their only claim to usefulness other than making money. If they allow any individual to certify students in their courses, of course they can and must be held responsible for, yes, each and everyone of them.

Agencies are the keepers of the flame. The advocates of competency, and if they have too many "independent instructors" to police, then they need to lose some of them.
Our sport depends on their actions and how well they promote 'safe' diving, not on how many inept instructors they have.

Stan

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

But in fact, they are courses... Here it is directly from PADI's website:

In the PADI Open Water Diver course, your PADI Instructor takes you through the basics of learning how to scuba dive. You start in a pool or pool-like conditions and progress to the open water (ocean, lake, quarry, etc.) getting the background knowledge along the way.

That is located at http://www.padi.com/padi/en/kd/openwater.aspx

Now, here is reference to it being a course from the PADI Instructor Manual GS&P FAQ section:

The PADI web site and Instructor Manual are not the subject. Independant instructors and LDS's advertising low price courses and then adding extra charges for materials neccessary to certification is what I thought we were discussing. I stand by my origional statement.

I think advertising certification sans book is total BS. In order to be certified you have to have the book, so the price of certification has to include the book. Obviously you give a discount if they have their own and you can just sell them a book, but I think it's pretty frickin' sleasy to charge extra for books!

 

[Scuba Cowboy]

You're kidding right? The proof is in the pudding. Compare the PADI OW standards to the GUE or even NAUI OW standards and you will see that there is a huge difference. PADI only being a blemish compared to GUE and NAUI OW standards.

Since when has GUE had an OW class? Maybe I missed the announcement. I've been involved with NAUI OW classes and they don't seem a whole lot better to me. I really think it boils down to who's teaching the course, not what agency its taught through.

 

[Don Wray]

Who are you, the PADI police?

I can say anything I like about PADI. I have nothing against PADI, I have taken many of their courses. The coursework is not rigorous, the books have very little substantive material, I believe. I have the Master Diver and the Divemaster rating and I found the courses somewhat weak in comparison to the course outlines I have seen from other agencies. (I think the AOW course should provide more to divers paying for the course.)

PADI certainly has their place, they facilitate more people into the ocean, families spending time together, enjoying nature, etc. PADI has many excellent instructors, many I know personally. I think it is a function of the market though...PADI is very large. If I wanted to choose a different agency for certifications, it would be problematic as there are not many in the area where I live.

I would like to see PADI standards for certifications raised, I have the right and the experience to speak on that.

It bothers me that many Divemasters cannot calculate percentages, yet somehow miraculously pass the written exam. The actual test could be ordered with the Instructor Manual by candidates, and I think that is very wrong. I don't know if this is still available, and I found out after I had studied and taken the test that many candidates had purchased/ obtained copies of the exam. Know anything about this?



It is very tiresome and time consuming, but I have given a few examples.
I think a person who has had ten or so courses with any agency is free to say "My Impression..."

They were going to hold back the divemaster section of my IDC crewpak until I completed DM and had my ID number. I just waited until I could give them the number and ordered it then. Almost cost me an extra $100 bucks as the cost of the crewpak went up $100 before I ordered. Luckily, since I had been communicating with them ahead of time, they gave the price when I first inquired about it.

 

[mjatkins]

Who are you, the PADI police?

Clearly not.

I can say anything I like about PADI.

Clearly true. What I said was if you don't have that ability to back it up, it seems irresponsible.

The coursework is not rigorous, the books have very little substantive material, I believe.

Again, I invite the debate. What is missing from the PADI OW manual, that I will find in the NAUI text? I do not have the NAUI book, or their standards, and would like to know.

I would like to see PADI standards for certifications raised, I have the right and the experience to speak on that.
It bothers me that many Divemasters cannot calculate percentages, yet somehow miraculously pass the written exam. The actual test could be ordered with the Instructor Manual by candidates, and I think that is very wrong. I don't know if this is still available, and I found out after I had studied and taken the test that many candidates had purchased/ obtained copies of the exam. Know anything about this?

Percentages of what? Are you talking about something in particular, or just general math skills? I cannot speak to what has previously been available, but at present, the DM exams are only available (within standards) to instructors through PADI. The instructor manual does contain the answer keys, and since the manual is available to DM candidates I would agree that it should not be in there. As for obtaining the exam in through other methods, if you as a PADI DM have knowledge of that, you know what your responsabilities are.

It is very tiresome and time consuming, but I have given a few examples.
I think a person who has had ten or so courses with any agency is free to say "My Impression..."

If you don't have time or energy to participate in Scubaboard discussions, I understand. Hopefully we will see you back at some point when you have more time and energy. And of course you have the right to offer your impression, I just don't believe you have the right to do it publicly without being prepaired to defend it.

Thanks