Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[Walter]

What is missing from the PADI OW manual..........?

Does the PADI open water text have a section about the panic cycle?

 

[Cacia]

PADI is turning a blind eye to the fact that the exams are out there to such a degree that DM candidates who cannot calculate a TIP are getting through.

My NAUI OW course was more difficult than PADI OW. Examples? hmm, we had to do more math, the pool session was fairly involved (not sure if they still doff and donn).

but at present, the DM exams are only available (within standards) to instructors through PADI.

oh...when did that happen, yesterday?

Personally, I think 3 versions of MC tests with answer keys all over the place is a joke.

If the Instructors knew the material cold, they could move the questions around a bit. Test my theory and go around with a little pop quiz for your PADI-Pros.

The reason I say "it's tiresome" is because I think PADI serves a great function opening diving up to the masses, and you will try and paint me as having an ax to grind with PADI. My own child was certed through PADI...but if you want to be a serious diver (nothing wrong with being a FUN diver)...then PADI-Cakes is not the best value for your dollar.

I know many excellent, devoted PADI instructors...but they are not excellent because PADI did anything to make them excellent. In fact, the really great ones I know are great IN SPITE OF PADI. PADI serves a different set of objectives, just as legitamate as creating serious individual divers, and probably has more of an impact on more people, overall. But to say their coursework is just as challenging...I cannot take you seriously, there must be a new flavor of kool-aid getting passed around.

GUE, TDI, NAUI for anything beyond OW would be my advice, if you are serious, beyond OW. (If it is available to you)

You want to be able to get air and travel the world, enjoy the planet's beauty, meet fun people? PADI is just fine, diving is pretty safe.

 

[amascuba]

I really get tired of hearing how so and so is a NON PROFIT org. I could be wrong but I think people are still making aliving from these NON PROFIT orgs. That smells like a profit to me!

Employee's collecting a salary from a non-profit organization is overhead, just like any other company. That's not profit.

Well perhaps you could fill me in on the differences between the NAUI and PADI standards for OW certification, and highlight the huge difference of which you speak. I do not have a copy of the NAUI standards and as such can only go on the description of the course offered on NAUI's website. So I invite the debate and the lesson. And no, I obviously am not kidding.

Thanks

I don't have a copy of the NAUI standards on hand. Maybe somebody else who does could enlighten you. The GUE standards are available from their website:

http://www.gue.com/Training/Standards/GUE_Standards_2006_ver4.pdf

The Open Water equivilent class is the Recreational Diver 1 (Section 2.12 starting on page 12 of the PDF) The class is the equivalent to a PADI OW/AOW/Rescue/Nitrox/plus some actual skill and knowledge development that PADI doesn't attempt to provide) -- That's not to say that individual instructors don't exceed the standards, but isn't what's at question.

Since when has GUE had an OW class? Maybe I missed the announcement. I've been involved with NAUI OW classes and they don't seem a whole lot better to me. I really think it boils down to who's teaching the course, not what agency its taught through.

http://www.gue.com/Training/Standards/GUE_Standards_2006_ver4.pdf

Recreational Diver 1 - Section 2.12 starting on page 12 of the PDF

Also:

I took fundies with mark, couple of weeks ago. I have friends interested in scuba, and asked about the GUE-OW-F, and mark said he would run one, but it would be quite long, he wants to run one as a beta.

The GUE OW class is available now. You get a Nitrox cert with it and it teaches you up to the roughly same level as a Fundies course. There are 2 levels, after which you can go into Tech1

Those were from the recent "Status of the GUE OW Course" thread.

 

[sytech]

I took the PADI Advanced OW Course about a year ago. The Instructor was adequate in my opinion but what really, really turned me off was the Course Manual. The questions were so dumb a chimp could have passed the exam. I am dead serious.

My initial response was that I was actually laughing out loud as I read the questions. Then it dawned on me that scuba training and comedy material don't quite mix. It's a serious topic.

Several months later I decided to take the NAUI Advanced OW Course. The instructor was very skilled and competent but in a more "apples to apples" comparison the Manual was thorough and detailed and the questions were for adults not chimps.

I will never take another PADI course because their course manual (and to me that takes the "Instructor" out of the equation) demonstrated very, very clearly what PADI as an organization is trying to accomplish and it has succeeded in becoming the "degree mill" of the scuba industry.

And before anyone jumps on my case, be advised that I have met several PADI trained DM's who were quite impressive in their skills and knowledge but I don't believe for a minute that they are representative of what PADI promulgates in their system.

Sy

You're kidding right? The proof is in the pudding. Compare the PADI OW standards to the GUE or even NAUI OW standards and you will see that there is a huge difference. PADI only being a blemish compared to GUE and NAUI OW standards.

Beyond that PADI is a FOR profit organization. GUE on the otherhand is a Non-profit organization.

Both of those statements pretty much back up what Catherine stated.

 

[amascuba]

I cannot speak to what has previously been available, but at present, the DM exams are only available (within standards) to instructors through PADI. The instructor manual does contain the answer keys, and since the manual is available to DM candidates I would agree that it should not be in there.

That's not necessarily true. As you said the DM exams are in the Instructor manual, so when a DM candidate buys the Instructor manual the DM has the answers to the exams, unless the instructor has the forethought to remove the DM exam's from the manual for the duration of the course.

 

[tedtim]

You're kidding right? The proof is in the pudding. Compare the PADI OW standards to the GUE or even NAUI OW standards and you will see that there is a huge difference. PADI only being a blemish compared to GUE and NAUI OW standards.

Beyond that PADI is a FOR profit organization. GUE on the otherhand is a Non-profit organization.

Both of those statements pretty much back up what Catherine stated.

edit duplicate of another post.

 

[amascuba]

Does GUE have OW standards, or are you referring to the DIR-F course, which requires an OW certification to start?

Please see Post 53.

 

[Cacia]

That's not necessarily true. As you said the DM exams are in the Instructor manual, so when a DM candidate buys the Instructor manual the DM has the answers to the exams, unless the instructor has the forethought to remove the DM exam's from the manual for the duration of the course.

That really ticked me off, in case you cannot tell. I think 2/3 of my DM class had the exam the day they walked in and can't tell you what 10% of 60 is.

Tell me, how tough would it be to change the exam every quarter? And have ten versions instead of a few? They know this is the only way some of these people are passing. It's dangerous.

 

[mjatkins]

Does the PADI open water text have a section about the panic cycle?

That is true Walter (that it's not there). Are you saying that it is in the NAUI OW manual? If so, that is a fine example. Hardly the staggering difference elluded to earlier in this thread, but a fine example none the less. So is that what you are saying?

Thanks

 

[mjatkins]

[/quote]My NAUI OW course was more difficult than PADI OW. Examples? hmm, we had to do more math, the pool session was fairly involved (not sure if they still doff and donn).[/quote]

OK, how much more math? Fairly involved in what way that PADI's isn't

[/quote] oh...when did that happen, yesterday?[/quote]

Yes! Clearly that is what is was suggesting. ???? edit; For the sake of clarity, this was sarcasm. I have no idea when it changed. As I mentioned, I was not aware that the exam was previously included in the manual.

[/quote] Personally, I think 3 versions of MC tests with answer keys all over the place is a joke.[/quote]

I have allready agreed that this is not the way I think it should be either. Another poster mentioned that the DM portion of his Manual was witheld untill he had compleated the course, so it seems a little unfair to try and suggest that PADI is somehow doing nothing about it.

[/quote] If the Instructors knew the material cold, they could move the questions around a bit. Test my theory and go around with a little pop quiz for your PADI-Pros.[/quote]

We are not in a position to rewrite the exams. If you know your theory inside out that's great. From my end that was never in question. What pecentage (roughly) of PADI pros do you know for a fact don't also have a proffessional level knowledge of diving. And how large a pool are we talking about. 10 people, 1500 people? I think this is important because if you are going to make sweeping statements about an enormous number of people, I would hope you have intimate knowledge of a large number of them.

[/quote]The reason I say "it's tiresome" is because I think PADI serves a great function opening diving up to the masses, and you will try and paint me as having an ax to grind with PADI. My own child was certed through PADI...but if you want to be a serious diver (nothing wrong with being a FUN diver)...then PADI-Cakes is not the best value for your dollar.[/quote]

I'm not trying to paint you as anything. I am merely trying to get you to be specific about the things you elude to. Glad to hear your child is a PADI diver. obviously you must respect the PADI system enough to trust your child to it.

[/quote] I know many excellent, devoted PADI instructors...but they are not excellent because PADI did anything to make them excellent. In fact, the really great ones I know are great IN SPITE OF PADI.[/quote]

Could you elaborate on this. What was it about PADI that was holding them back? And how did they overcome it and stay within the PADI system?

[/quote]PADI serves a different set of objectives, just as legitamate as creating serious individual divers, and probably has more of an impact on more people, overall. But to say their coursework is just as challenging...I cannot take you seriously, there must be a new flavor of kool-aid getting passed around.[/quote]

To be clear I have said nothing of the sort. You have made statements, and I have asked you to defend them by educating me on the differences you eluded to. Also, could you clarify what you are suggesting by this "kool-aid" reference.

Thanks