Question GUE - Is it much different to traditional agencies like SSI or PADI?

[Oldbear]

“…some are brilliant, some are split fin ankle weights seahorse maniacs…”

Don’t be hating on split fins…they have their place in the diving realm. Just probably not in a GUE thread

 

[Manchz]

What is utterly absurd is that the "shop" with their so-called highly skilled and experienced instructors cannot mentor someone to develop their skills. This is tantamount to admitting they do not have the skills they purport to offer. Either that or they're too engrossed in the sell courses, sell courses, sell more courses...

Any good instructor can mentor people. The issues sounds like the dive shop doesn't have the skills nor the people to train them.

Seems that it's not a good dive shop.


I can only speak from my experience, but the above doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I found that the recreational divers, based around dive shops, frequently only use the basic diving skills and not the far higher level skills required in the technical community. I used "frequently" as not all are like that; some outfits have technical divers teaching and these are the ones which you need to seek out and use.

Technical diving is often seen, especially by the recreational/NDL community, as deep, long, complicated diving. It is not, although it can be. Technical diving absolutely requires strong core skills (buoyancy, trim, finning) as a basis for those more challenging dives, especially when dealing with problems. The recreational community tends to treat barely adequate core skills as acceptable; in technical circles, adequate skills are completely unacceptable.

Which is why GUE Fundamentals exists to sort out and set the standards for core skills. Other technical agencies do offer the same thing but don't have the same level of recognition.

Fundies is a great course and will be extremely challenging if your core skills are weak. You should be able to arrange to dive with other people who understand what good looks like. Those core skills require a lot of effort to perfect, but all the effort put in will make your diving -- any kind of diving -- far more pleasurable and safe.

I'd also suggest finding a good experienced technical diver instructor to help you with some mentoring (although some people would argue that basic skills with little knowledge of techniques is a better starting point as you don't need to break bad habits).

All the instructors at my LDS are technical divers. They have the skills, they do cave, rebreathers (if that’s what technical means) etc. I have dived with them, I have seen their videos.

They just want me to do another course if I was to learn a skill within that course. They can’t teach it outside of the course. When I asked about swimming backwards, they said that’s in technical course - so can’t teach privately. So for now I just touch the rock and gently push my self backward… most of the time my finger can’t even reach the rock base and neither do I wanna touch it. it’s usually a bit of kelp growing and i don’t want to be half-body deep inside kelp to find the base of the rock so I can “gently push myself backward” - :/. Since i got the advice a few months ago, i haven’t done it once. I just don’t dive with large groups anymore where such a situation can arise that there are divers all around you and no room to swim sideways. I also stay away from spaces where I can’t turn my angle. I know I won’t be able to swim backwards, so I just don’t even let myself get in that situation.

GUE F teaches the backward swim. I also wanna learn frog kick, GUEF teaches that. Even if I fail, which I sort of expect I will, as long as I can be better off than where i am, that’s good enough for me! I believe GUE F also spends a reasonable time honing in on your buoyancy, trim etc?

 

[Manchz]

So the LDS where you did your OW and where you rent your gear won't/can't give you one-on-one instruction? And they taught you to use your drysuit for bouyancy control, not your wing? Is that the only shop in your area? You may find a quite different approach at a different shop...

Yes, in the theory for dry suit - it was use both Dryuit + wing. In practical, no wing was used when submerged (only during flotation and surface swim). Adding and removal of air was only through dry suit (perhaps to keep it easier for teh student to remember?)

your impression of wetsuit divng was that it was more difficult than drysuit, then I'm guessing it was a big thick floaty 7mm for the same cold local waters? That plus an aluminum tank can be a challenge.

Yes - 7mm drysuit and I’d be freezing my t*ts off!

relax, and enjoy. If you've never experienced tropical diving in little or no exposure suit, you're going to feel like you've gone to heaven. EVERYTHING is easier, which means you're not climbing that really steep learning curve.

Was hoping to do that when I am slightly better and have more $$$, perhaps a year later. I am really hoping to be a better diver so I can enjoy it more - as it’s a ton of effort to go overseas just for diving when you kinda suck. No doubt, I am much better than I started - but it’s not an enjoyable experience yet. My only goal is enjoyable (and most importantly - more relaxed & safer) dives in NZ, it has plenty to offer (even in cold waters!) - some underwater life here is amazing - only if I can stay “still” enough for a moment to look around. I am just never really still, body is always either going up or down, just moving around in the water column when i “stop”. Even a tiny bit of current can shove me into kelp or a reef wall but doesn’t really do much to other more experienced divers with me, so the whole time I am diving, I am fighting and expending energy. The only time i can achieve somewhat of a relaxed state is a when I am moving forward/swim with kicking, although very slowly, but still gotta keep moving. I know this is a common issue with new divers cos of buoyancy problems.


Now that summer’s coming to NZ more, I will be diving more often anyway, as much as resources allow.

 

[Wibble]

It is a ridiculous and short sighted attitude they have for what is essentially core skills development where mentoring is most appropriate.

GUE Fundies will be a great course for you with the additional benefit of not giving that shop any money.

Back-kick is the hardest finning technique that needs a lot of practice. Frog kicking is relatively simple, like breaststroke kicking. Helicopter turns are in between. All techniques are used on all dives, recreational or technical.

Good luck with your skills development

 

[Manchz]

Talk to prospective dive shops before choosing, be up-front about your situation (you've been really open here on SB - kudos to you)

Have tried a couple of shops (all SSI/PADI) only advice “dive more” or .. take another course. Sigh.

And no doubt, there’s no substitute for diving more, feeling for your breathing and how it’s changing your position, etc - so I ll keep doing that regardless.

 

[Manchz]

Helicopter turns are in between

What’s helicopter turns? And yes i did read that backward finning is extremely hard. I won’t put so much pressure on myself to learn it entirely. I ll learn what I am able and practice it on subsequent dives

 

[Wibble]

What’s helicopter turns? And yes i did read that backward finning is extremely hard. I won’t put so much pressure on myself to learn it entirely. I ll learn what I am able and practice it on subsequent dives

That's turning around without waving your hands

Basically one leg doing a back-kick and the other a frog-kick where you turn around on the spot within your own length.

What would be amazing is if "All the instructors at my LDS are technical divers. They have the skills, they do cave, rebreathers" were to demonstrate their superior skills on a 6m platform or at a safety stop. If they really are that great, then you should see those skills all the time in the water.

BTW the hardest skill of all is to be completely still, no moving of anything!

Have tried a couple of shops (all SSI/PADI) only advice “dive more” or .. take another course. Sigh.

And no doubt, there’s no substitute for diving more, feeling for your breathing and how it’s changing your position, etc - so I ll keep doing that regardless.

I know this very well. Where you are I was a decade or more ago. I found the recreational divers weren't interested in perfecting (core) skills, they aspired to be adequate not great.

I did a GUE experience day which literally blew my mind. The guy demonstrating on a 6m/20ft platform was amazing: flat trim and didn't move from 20cm/8" above the platform; finned without waving his hands; turned on the spot; and finned backwards... It was literally magical in comparison with the flappy-hand seahorse bottom churners I dived with.

After that demo he said that I should be diving like that. Never before had anyone in the recreational side ever demonstrated those skills nor implied that one should aim for those standards.

I signed up for Fundies but that was very difficult as my skills were still poor. Took many months to develop those skills, but that investment means all diving is much easier and safer as a result.

I didn't proceed with the GUE route for my technical courses (cave, trimix, CCR) for other reasons. However, I cannot recommend GUE Fundamentals highly enough for sorting out your core skills.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Back kick is hard, but so useful. As the OP mentioned, when you're in a group where everyone creeps up for a closer look at something small, it's a great feeling after you've had your turn looking at the thing to simply back out while others are turning left or right to swim away or even touching the rock or coral to push themselves back. But the back-kick doesn't come easily to everyone. One of my instructor's comments at the end of my Cave 2 course was that my back-kick could use some work. Ugh.

Helicopter is occasionally useful, too. Sometimes you just want to pivot 180 degrees.

You know you have really mastered these "propulsion techniques" when you find yourself employing the best kick for the circumstances. After learning the frog, seemingly everyone wants to do nothing but frog kick. Yet the flutter can yield the most power, and when you get into a fast current you may want to switch to the flutter. I find this hard, too.

 

[NothingClever]

Yeah, my pea-sized brain struggled to process that I needed to switch to flutter kick two weekends ago when we almost drifted by the centerpiece wreck. Once I did my brain remembered to pick up deeper but still calm breathing to ensure I didn’t build up a debt that lingered. Once I slithered my way up over the gunwale and got behind some cover protecting me from the current, back to frog legs.

Getting comfortable with and using the back kick is bomber. It’s pretty close in satisfaction to when I got my buoyancy control dialed in like an elevator or when I “graduated” from arm swimming for direction changes.

 

[Wibble]

Then there's Flutter kick and the other flutter kick--the latter wagging legs around like a pair of scissors, the former with bent knees and very powerful.

And not to forget Mod-Flutter for more ankle usage...