Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[J.R.]

However I am willing to bet that the "The NAUI Nitrox Course" is supposed to INCLUDE some type of literature (chart, booklet whatever) because I'm virtually certain that the shop owner was trying to "get over" on me.

Ummm... that would be the "NAUI Nitrox Diver" book... my wife and I just took the class... 103 pages... and, while it may not be 'technically necessary' (I'm just a student... not on the inner circle of NAUI policy) ... we're kinda' glad we had it... handy for answering the test questions...

 

[The Kraken]

J.R.,

You make an interesting point, but there do exist such things as "copyright laws".

In my humble opinion, I think there should be a "truth is certification" standard.

Yes, the CLASS costs only $35, but you need to buy the materials, the certification dives, yadda, yadda, yadda . . .

Just be up front about it . . . to get your certification, it's going to cost you $X if you do a trip certification dive, or a quarry certification dive, or whatever.

The CLASS costs are not unlike "lost leaders", "bait and switch" or what have you.

Now I realize that the used car industry uses this all the time, but most people going into an LDS are completely unaware of this. And keep in mind, people are aware of the tactics used by auto dealerships, but not of those used by dive shops. Please do not take my observation to imply that I absolve the prospective diver of not using proper care and caution.

the K

 

[J.R.]

You make an interesting point, but there do exist such things as "copyright laws".

Well... yea... but there are also "fair use" laws. As we're married and live under the same roof I'd really hate to see a situation where we have to buy two copies of "Shadow Divers" just so we both could read it... likewise, as it would be possible to simply write the answers to the questions on a piece of paper sans photocopy formatting... I'm not sure there's much of a problem there either... but then I AIN'T A LAWYER ... and lord knows what their take is...

In my humble opinion, I think there should be a "truth is certification" standard.

... absolutely... info up front in ANY dealings... regardless of which side of the equation you're on...

It could be that we've just been lucky... so far our LDS has been very up front about class costs, time requirements and book costs. There is occasionally a grey area with regard to dive site costs... but that's primarily because sometimes (as she attempts to coordinate all the individual student schedules... ) plans change.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I think advertising certification sans book is total BS.

Well... I can see that from one point of view... but let me offer another. My wife and I are taking the same courses... With the LDS's blessing, we buy one book, photocopy the worksheets to hand in... We've already saved some on the class out of the gate and still have the book and worksheets in the library... or... (you can figure out what you want to do with your extra copy).

My LDS does both NAUI and PADI... customer's choice...

Just another take on the 'sell the books separate' issue...

Me thinks you quote me out of context to re-say something the rest of us all ignored because it only applies to a small few. I covered the vast majority nicely in the rest of what you didn't quote (see below). Furthermore, as an instructor/guide in Wailea I often certify the new spouse, or guide for the diver who's new spouse doesn't dive, so I am sure there are plenty of divorced divers that wouldn't have a book in their library unless the standard was every student gets a book. As I understand it that is the PADI standard and from what I've seen of marraige in this day and age, it's valid. With your LDS's blessing, that may only be the first standards violation in your certification with them.

I think advertising certification sans book is total BS. In order to be certified you have to have the book, so the price of certification has to include the book. Obviously you give a discount if they have their own and you can just sell them a book, but I think it's pretty frickin' sleasy to charge extra for books!

Folks, this whole thread astonishes me. Is it ‘sleazy’ for major universities to charge separately (yes, read that as EXTRA) for books that you need for the courses for which you have already paid tuition (and fees)?

If you re-read my post (that you quoted) you will see that I said nothing about a course. Diving instruction results in a certification. Quit comparing the agencies to state, private and ivy league universities, all of you! It is rarely even a half decent analogy. If an instructor or LDS advertises a low price by using the word course, then adds the neccessary materials for an extra charge, they catch and fleece a few unsuspecting customers, lowering the overall reputation of the industry.

So many people whine about the standards being lowered, except when adhearing to standards would have adversely affected them.

 

[Crowley]

C-cards are usually returned to the Inst, but that's something else you could have requested up front: Can I get my card mailed to me?

I didn't know that was the case - PADI give the option to mail the card to the dive centre, instructor or student's home address... am curious what other agencies do with their cert card options? Not a "me vs you" thing, I'd just like to know...!

 

[TeddyDiver]

If you say that "The cultivating' environment comes more from the diveshop and the local habits than from the agency" then what the heck is the influence of the Agency supposed to be?

There are some who disegree with me about this but after my experiences in different places (eu, caribean, Thailand), and being a member in 6 "dive boards" I have observed lot of local "subcultures" in diving. Mostly they originate from role models and/or diveshops and/or instructors. The differences between these are often more obvious than any differences btw agencies, and I'm not talking about any technical diving here.

 

[pir8]

people traveling with crew kits is not practical though...could they make the box any bigger, if they tried? "leave only bubbles"..but lets chop down some more trees, for those boxes. See, this is where they sort of lose some credibilty about being serious.

PADI has dropped the box style crewpack and gone to a zippered folder.

 

[Stu S.]

Just as Harvard cultivates a certain mindset compared to a local community college I think the same can be said of certification agencies. That's not to say that all Harvard grads are geniuses and all community college grads are "less bright". However "on average" it certainly is true.

Hey diver! What year did you graduate from Harvard?

 

[ScubaRandy]

If you re-read my post (that you quoted) you will see that I said nothing about a course. Diving instruction results in a certification. Quit comparing the agencies to state, private and ivy league universities, all of you! It is rarely even a half decent analogy. If an instructor or LDS advertises a low price by using the word course, then adds the neccessary materials for an extra charge, they catch and fleece a few unsuspecting customers, lowering the overall reputation of the industry.

So many people whine about the standards being lowered, except when adhearing to standards would have adversely affected them.

But in fact, they are courses... Here it is directly from PADI's website:

In the PADI Open Water Diver course, your PADI Instructor takes you through the basics of learning how to scuba dive. You start in a pool or pool-like conditions and progress to the open water (ocean, lake, quarry, etc.) getting the background knowledge along the way.

That is located at http://www.padi.com/padi/en/kd/openwater.aspx

Now, here is reference to it being a course from the PADI Instructor Manual GS&P FAQ section:

Question 7:​

If a student diver must interrupt training, what is the time limit​

for completing a PADI course with the same instructor?

Answer 7:​

There is no time limit as long as the student diver resumes training​

with the same instructor. Training may also continue at the

same dive center or resort if team teaching is practiced. Keep in
mind that after an interruption remediation is probably necessary
before the student continues.
Also, if the break in training is 12 months or greater, have
the student diver complete new administrative paperwork
including a liability release, medical statement and Safe Diving
Practices Statement of Understanding.​

So it seems to me by reading the standards that these are in fact courses, and not merely certifications​

Well... I can see that from one point of view... but let me offer another. My wife and I are taking the same courses... With the LDS's blessing, we buy one book, photocopy the worksheets to hand in... We've already saved some on the class out of the gate and still have the book and worksheets in the library... or... (you can figure out what you want to do with your extra copy).​

My LDS does both NAUI and PADI... customer's choice...

Just another take on the 'sell the books separate' issue...

Just out of curiosity, did you go NAUI or PADI? If it was PADI, then it may be a standards violation depending on the style of manual you got.​

Question 12: Can an instructor photocopy or reproduce (electronically or​

by other means) the blank Knowledge Reviews from any PADI Manual?

Answer 12:​

No. This is a copyright infringement. PADI Members may reproduce​

items found in the Appendix sections of the PADI Instructor Manual
​

, PADI Course Director Manual and Specialty Instructor Outlines. Reproducing Knowledge Reviews or any other copyrighted materials is allowed only when the materials cannot be obtained by other means and only after obtaining written permission from PADI.

This is quoted from the General Standards and Procedures section of the PADI Instructor Manual.​

If you purchased the Multimedia version of the CrewPak, then you are correct that you only had to purchase the 1 CrewPak.​

Randy​

​

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Threads like this are the reason why I quote my class prices "all inclusive". When I tell a student that my NAUI Nitrox class costs $125, it includes the student kit and C-card (yes ... some shops make you pay separately for the C-card too, since it costs them money).

If a shop is quoting you what appears to be a "great price" on a class, make sure you ask them what it includes, and what else you will be expected to purchase in order to complete the class. I've seen ridiculous markups on student kits ... sometimes two or three times what the shop pays for it. That's not indicative of the agency ... it's all about the individual shop. Agencies don't dictate what the shop charges for a class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)