Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[sytech]

I was wondering if anyone can shed some light on the following:

What type of "oversight" or regulations do the main certification Agencies (PADI, NAUI, SSI etc.) require of dive shops that use their name and offer courses in their name?

For example if "Joe's Scuba Shop" in Ft. Lauderdale offers the "PADI Advanced OW Certification" course can one be assured that if they were to take that same course in the Bahamas or Aruba that the course requirements and the course materials would be the same?

The reason I ask is that there appear to be a very "loose" affiliation requirements between the Agencies and many dive shops outside of the USA at least. I am getting the impression that the "affiliation" is really mostly based upon financial considerations and not much more. Duh.

I realize that and in and of itself it's not a problem as long as the course is presented by a competent instructor who has experience commensurate with what it is he's teaching. I recently took a NAUI Nitrox Course and the shop owner gave me the price for the course and we agreed to start on a certain date (a few months ago). When I got to the class I asked for the course materials (a booklet, a little chart of dive tables, a DVD anything). Nothing.

The owner said that if I wanted "course materials" they would cost extra. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that so basic a concept as "taking a course" could be done without "course materials" (I'm not talking about a piece of gear either. A pamphlet, a booklet anything!). The course itself was on the expensive side (compared to prices for other Certification Agencies' Nitrox course). The guy was clearly trying to con me . There was no IANTD or SSI on the island. Only PADI and no thanks) but I did want to take the NAUI course.

So, when I started raising objections about the price of the course being so high yet with NO "course materials" included he began to change his tune. He promised me 2 DVD's which he had someone burn at the last minute on their computers. They are both of no use (blurry images on one, unreadable files on the other) and are not "NAUI" products.

On another matter (which I posted to this board about a week ago) I'm going to Cozumel in a few days and would like to have my NAUI Nitrox Cert. Card. The dive shop had sent the proof of my having taken the course to NAUI which the latter received at the end of February. They then issued the card and sent it to the Dive Shop in Columbia "because that is what the instructor requested". Oh, I live in New Jersey.

When I asked a rep. at NAUI why it was sent to Columbia "because that is what the instructor requested" she said the reason for this is that "the Dive shop bought a 'product' from NAUI"(the Nitrox course I suppose) and they have the prerogative of determining where the card is sent. I told her that I had also bought a "product" which was the NAUI Nitrox Course. Foolishly I never told her that the guy didn't include any course materials. That was a mistake on my part.

To sum it all up: Besides paying the certification agency for the use of their name and logo what do these agencies actually do to make sure that the dive shops using their "name" adhere to some uniform set of course criteria?

Makes me wanna stay with YMCA because their courses are quite rigorous (my basic OW course was much more demanding than the PADI Advanced OW course) and they don't have the type of "degree mill" mentality that might be found elsewhere.

Problem is YMCA courses are very hard to find outside of the USA.
And no "it doesn't all depend on the instructor". Just as Harvard cultivates a certain mindset compared to a local community college I think the same can be said of certification agencies. That's not to say that all Harvard grads are geniuses and all community college grads are "less bright". However "on average" it certainly is true.



Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sy

 

[Puffer Fish]

Sounds like you have not been having fun.

Regarding the where the NAUI card was sent, NAUI will send it where ever the instuctor wants. The issue there was the dive shop not NAUI. I know that does not help, but please at least be unhappy with the correct person.

The other issue - or rather the prime issue you raised. Every agency has standards, but it is the instructors that are to maintain them. Some agency's have more or less flexability, but they all have basic standards.

Regarding cost - that is, to my knowledge, not set by them. They would have no way of knowing what is "reasonable". Nor would they know how much all the extra stuff costs (like pool work, or boat costs).

You are not the only one to complain about PADI classes, but this is first and foremost a business to them.

Please keep in mind that cards do not make the person, and that goes for instructors. There are good and bad instructors in every agency that I know of, just like there are good and bad divers.

 

[rawls]

I will try to give you a general overall answer to your question...Dive operations who teach using a certain agency must teach in accordance to the Standards and Practices as set forth from that specific agency. It is WAY off to say the affiliations are based on financial considerations...Speaking of financial considerations, think of how much an agency would be paying in legal expenses if they were lax in the enforcement of their standards. PADI, for example, has a Quallity Assurance division. If you have any question about an operation's teaching methods then you have a responsibility as a diver to let the Agency know. If it is a PADI sanctioned operation, once they hear from a student with a concern, you can bet its Quality Assurance dept will be on it very fast. You are also dealing with risk management issues. Standards are for safety and no agency is going to be sanctining dive shops just so they can collect money. In effect, if an operation is not following standards then the agency is not going to say...well, as long as they are paying their dues and buying our products we will let them slide. It will be...Your operation is not adhering to standards, either fix it or your sanction is history.

You are not the only one to complain about PADI classes, but this is first and foremost a business to them.

Give me a freking break..."you are not the only one to complain about PADI classes." Do you think that there are other agencies out there that students have not complained about. But I think he was complaining about NAUI? Singling out one agency for a remark like that is irrational. Secondly, are you saying with other agencies it isn't first and foremost a business to them. Has something changed whereby NAUI, SSI, IANTD, TDI,...have become not for profit organizations.

 

[Debraw]

I was wondering if anyone can shed some light on the following:

What type of "oversight" or regulations do the main certification Agencies (PADI, NAUI, SSI etc.) require of dive shops that use their name and offer courses in their name?<CLIP>

The oversight is YOU the customer! PADI has a quality assurance department that will take your calls, complaints and even your praises. If you have a complaint about your NAUI course then call NAUI, it's not to late. Same goes for your PADI class, if you felt you were not taught properly and were missing something, complain. PADI probably sent you a survey, did you fill it out? Did Naui send you a survey? Fill it out. I fill out comment cards for restaurants, hotels, cruises, department stores, you name it.
As a PADI shop we are required to adhere to standards. If you break the standards they find out through customer surveys, or even other members of PADI that see an infraction.

 

[Gombessa]

I'd probably be a bit surprised as well if there were no reading required to take a course like that, but if you think about it, no materials *included* isn't strange at all, even in the context of scuba training (I've seen plenty of OW courses advertised for $150, but oh, books + DVD are another $60, gear isn't included, nor are equipment rentals or boat charters for the OW cert dives). Also, I've never taken a single college or grad school course that had reading materials included, either.

So while I wouldn't be surprised if your nitrox instructor was indeed trying to pull a fast one over on you (the copied DVS, strings-attached sell, etc.), I wouldn't say the book issue is that out of the ordinary.

 

[shurite7]

As mentioned above, all agencies have standards. What the agencies can not do is "police" each and every dive shop or dive operator or independent instructor. The best advice has been given, contact the agency and inform them of your issue.

Both PADI and NAUI will mail the c-cards where the instructor states. I've alway's informed my students the c-card will be mailed to the shop. If a student has an issue with this they need to inform me so that appropriate measures can be taken. However, when I lived in the islands c-cards were mailed to the address given to me by the students. Again, they were informed of this up front.

Course material. The trend is shifting to cheap. For example; shop A quotes a cost of X for such and such course and shop B quotes a cost of XY for the same course, 90% of the public will go to shop A because it is "cheaper". Shop A does not include the books and shop B does. Very few people will research or inquire to find out what is included and not included in the cost. In many markets where there is competition many shops will not offer books to attract the business. Here in lies the problem; who is responsible....the dive shop giving you every bit of detailed information or the consumer making the proper inquiries?

When I worked for American Airlines I conducted a small experiment. I worked in a department that could book any airline. I would quote the complete cost and all the rules of one airline then quote the price (listed in advertisement) of another airline that did not include all the little surcharges. Both airlines offered a flight departing within minutes of each other and were none stop. 3 out of 4 people would book the latter without finding out details. In the end they would end up paying a few dollars more because they didn't ask questions or didn't listen to all the details given to them.

Sadly, there is a catch 22. Customers do not research or listen and business's do not want to give out complete information for fear of loosing business to a competitor.

Good luck.

Chris

 

[friscuba]

Makes me wanna stay with YMCA because their courses are quite rigorous (my basic OW course was much more demanding than the PADI Advanced OW course) and they don't have the type of "degree mill" mentality that might be found elsewhere.

For info sake, PADI's OW course is much more demanding than their AOW course. I came up through the Y program initially and became a PADI intructor later. The Y instructor had a fairly rigorous OW program (no more rigorous that PADI's skillwize, but more information thrown in during the lectures at the time), and his AOW program was even more lax than PADI's.

I recently had a NAUI instructor send me a referral student, with no paperwork whatsoever, no Universal Referral form that I've been seeing for several years, no log book with training record, nothing other than a letter requesting that I finish the student off... the instructor wasn't even aware of the paperwork being needed. What with liability these days I was pretty limited with what I could do in two dives, I certainly couldn't sign them off. In 8 years of doing referrals this is the first time I've seen someone send a student from any agency without the proper paperwork.

All I'm saying is, don't blame agencies. Your issues could be a combination of instructors, the fact that it wasn't in this country, and other things.

later,

 

[Crowley]

My first contribution to Scubaboard!

Again for info (and I am a PADI instructor, so I am never especially happy when people put down the Agency for whom I work, however...)

Firstly: The PADI AOW course is not supposed to be demanding, it's supposed to be a fun introduction to new concepts and new equipment whils praticing your dive skills.

Secondly: The PADI Enriched air course is pretty much the same as every other nitrox course. Nitrox is nitrox, the partial pressure of Oxygen doesn't differ between agencies so the concepts introduced are for the most part the same

Thirdly: Many dive shops do not include course materials in the course pricing - they are two separate things. PADI course materials are required and we always inform our customers of this, but it makes sense to treat materials under a separate pricing centre so that you can easily sell a person just the materials (they might want to read up before doing the course) or just the course (they might have bought the materials elsewhere before joining your company)

Again, as with the other comments, PADI have a very thorough Quality Assurance Program and as far as I'm aware, so do NAUI. (I'm not 100% familiar with all other agencies' training standards) If you are unhappy with your course, or your instructor then complain. PADI have pretty strict regulations regarding whether or not a shop is entitled to represent itself to teach their courses.

Sadly, not everybody is perfect, competent or pays attention to the rules!!

Safe diving peeps,

Crowley

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I think advertising certification sans book is total BS. In order to be certified you have to have the book, so the price of certification has to include the book. Obviously you give a discount if they have their own and you can just sell them a book, but I think it's pretty frickin' sleasy to charge extra for books!

 

[DandyDon]

I think advertising certification sans book is total BS. In order to be certified you have to have the book, so the price of certification has to include the book. Obviously you give a discount if they have their own and you can just sell them a book, but I think it's pretty frickin' sleasy to charge extra for books!

At least without stating "plus materials," yeah - but then the consumer should also know to ask. "Is that an inclusive price...??"

Btw, sytech, now that you are posting here - you are welcome to ask here before spending money, on about anything scuba related. I know of stores offering the Nitrox course including materials for $99 - and we could have found you one close by, too, probly.

C-cards are usually returned to the Inst, but that's something else you could have requested up front: Can I get my card mailed to me?