Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[ScubaRandy]

I was wondering if anyone can shed some light on the following:

What type of "oversight" or regulations do the main certification Agencies (PADI, NAUI, SSI etc.) require of dive shops that use their name and offer courses in their name?

I'll try to help from the PADI side of things here. If a shop advertises a particular course as being offered as a PADI course, then that instructor or shop MUST offer it according to the PADI standards for that course

For example if "Joe's Scuba Shop" in Ft. Lauderdale offers the "PADI Advanced OW Certification" course can one be assured that if they were to take that same course in the Bahamas or Aruba that the course requirements and the course materials would be the same?

You would be correct in that statement.

The reason I ask is that there appear to be a very "loose" affiliation requirements between the Agencies and many dive shops outside of the USA at least. I am getting the impression that the "affiliation" is really mostly based upon financial considerations and not much more. Duh.

The standards are the same no matter where the course is taught.

I realize that and in and of itself it's not a problem as long as the course is presented by a competent instructor who has experience commensurate with what it is he's teaching. I recently took a NAUI Nitrox Course and the shop owner gave me the price for the course and we agreed to start on a certain date (a few months ago). When I got to the class I asked for the course materials (a booklet, a little chart of dive tables, a DVD anything). Nothing.

The owner said that if I wanted "course materials" they would cost extra. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that so basic a concept as "taking a course" could be done without "course materials" (I'm not talking about a piece of gear either. A pamphlet, a booklet anything!). The course itself was on the expensive side (compared to prices for other Certification Agencies' Nitrox course). The guy was clearly trying to con me . There was no IANTD or SSI on the island. Only PADI and no thanks) but I did want to take the NAUI course.

This is completely up to the shop or the instructor (if he is an independent) as to how to market the course. Some include the course materials, some don't. Some will charge for everything a la carte (including confined water time, gear, course materials, EVERYTHING). This is the reason that I state what is covered in the course cost when you sign up for a course with me

So, when I started raising objections about the price of the course being so high yet with NO "course materials" included he began to change his tune. He promised me 2 DVD's which he had someone burn at the last minute on their computers. They are both of no use (blurry images on one, unreadable files on the other) and are not "NAUI" products.

This would be a violation of PADI standards had the course been a PADI course. Each student is REQUIRED to have a personal copy of the course materials, and they have to be the PADI materials

On another matter (which I posted to this board about a week ago) I'm going to Cozumel in a few days and would like to have my NAUI Nitrox Cert. Card. The dive shop had sent the proof of my having taken the course to NAUI which the latter received at the end of February. They then issued the card and sent it to the Dive Shop in Columbia "because that is what the instructor requested". Oh, I live in New Jersey.

When I asked a rep. at NAUI why it was sent to Columbia "because that is what the instructor requested" she said the reason for this is that "the Dive shop bought a 'product' from NAUI"(the Nitrox course I suppose) and they have the prerogative of determining where the card is sent. I told her that I had also bought a "product" which was the NAUI Nitrox Course. Foolishly I never told her that the guy didn't include any course materials. That was a mistake on my part.

I would contact the shop and ask them to send the card to the mailing address that they have on record for the student.

To sum it all up: Besides paying the certification agency for the use of their name and logo what do these agencies actually do to make sure that the dive shops using their "name" adhere to some uniform set of course criteria?

In the case of PADI, they do send out random questionnaires to students asking about the quality of the course. If they get them back with somewhat disparaging responses, then they will either contact the dive center or instructor to hear that side of the story. They also have begin tracking the # of orders that a shop or an instructor makes for course materials and the number of students that a shop or instructor certifies... Theoretically, it should be close to 1:1, not 1:6.

Makes me wanna stay with YMCA because their courses are quite rigorous (my basic OW course was much more demanding than the PADI Advanced OW course) and they don't have the type of "degree mill" mentality that might be found elsewhere.

Problem is YMCA courses are very hard to find outside of the USA.
And no "it doesn't all depend on the instructor". Just as Harvard cultivates a certain mindset compared to a local community college I think the same can be said of certification agencies. That's not to say that all Harvard grads are geniuses and all community college grads are "less bright". However "on average" it certainly is true.

Having never taken a YMCA course ( I have taken NAUI and PADI courses), I can't say whether or not this is true. I can say though that when I teach a course, you have certainly earned your certification in whatever course you are taking from me.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sy

I hope that this helps you out Sy from the PADI side of things.

Randy

 

[WyCal]

One reason some shops may be selling the books seperately from the class is to save you money. Not sure if this applies everywhere, but in Florida the class is not taxed but the books are. If the books are included in the price of the class, both the books and the class need to be taxed.

 

[The Kraken]

One needs to keep the dive shop and the agency with which the shop is affilliated separate. The agency has no interest in the shop other than it teaches from a syllabus developed and supported by that particular agency.

As Debraw so succinctly stated it, YOU are the oversight.

I'm a PADI instructor. PADI doesn't conduct my classes, I do. PADI create make poor divers, instructors do. NAUI doesn't create poor divers, instructors do. SSI doesn't create poor divers, instructors do.

An analogy for people who blame agencies for the turn out of poor divers would be to blame the department of motor vehicles for creating bad drivers. The DMV didn't teach drivers to drive, it only set forth the requirements which have to be met to receive a permit.

If a student feels that a standard of the agency through which he is being certified has been compromised, then the onus of reporting that breach falls upon no one but himself. Sort of like voting . . . if you didn't vote, don't complain about the elected official.

The only "oversight" by the agency comes into play when a breach of standards by an instructor working under the aegis of a dive shop has been reported, then the agency's Q/A department will step in and see what's going on.

the K

 

[spectrum]

sytech

My experience with dive class content has been that some (most in my experience) instructors take a lot of liberties and I'm not talking about adding content. My most structured and by the book class was a PADI offering.

I don't care what the agencies say they are required to do it is not even close to a universal reality. I'm not basking all instructors, there are good and bad, buyer beware.

As for class, fee and deliverables that's also buyer beware. It's no different than a used car at a great price until you see in the fine print that the great price includes a $5000. down payment.

NAUI Card went to intructor in Columbia instead of you in NJ...... My NAUI cards are instrutor signed, perhaps they wanted to do so and then forward a signed card to you.

Pete

 

[Scuba Cowboy]

One reason some shops may be selling the books seperately from the class is to save you money. Not sure if this applies everywhere, but in Florida the class is not taxed but the books are. If the books are included in the price of the class, both the books and the class need to be taxed.

We include materials in all our courses and the books are taxed but not the class. Its a simple matter on an invoice to tax or not, especially when using a good point of sale program.

 

[sytech]

You do make a point but regarding the survey that's done "after the fact".

It is our reliance on the credibility and reputation of the certification agency that helps us to decide where to take a course in the first place!

The oversight is YOU the customer! PADI has a quality assurance department that will take your calls, complaints and even your praises. If you have a complaint about your NAUI course then call NAUI, it's not to late. Same goes for your PADI class, if you felt you were not taught properly and were missing something, complain. PADI probably sent you a survey, did you fill it out? Did Naui send you a survey? Fill it out. I fill out comment cards for restaurants, hotels, cruises, department stores, you name it.
As a PADI shop we are required to adhere to standards. If you break the standards they find out through customer surveys, or even other members of PADI that see an infraction.

 

[sytech]

Thanks halemano. That's exactly my point:

If a shop advertises "NAUI Nitrox Course" for XXX$$ there should be a predetermined
curriculum (topics covered, how many dives?) and the inclusion of the course materials AS PART OF THE COURSE. However, if NAUI (or any agency for that matter) doesn't require "course materials" then that's one thing but to leave the inclusion of materials "to the disgression of the Instructor" is nonsense and actually makes my point that the affiliations between individual shops and certifying agencies are simply financial arrangements with some nebulous requirements made by the dive shop to the certifying agency.

The dive shop is free to price his course contingent with his costs of doing business but he doesn't have the right to make a material alteration or exclusion of course materials. If he does he's not giving a "NAUI" or "PADI or whatever course. He's giving "Joe's Scuba Course".

Sy

I think advertising certification sans book is total BS. In order to be certified you have to have the book, so the price of certification has to include the book. Obviously you give a discount if they have their own and you can just sell them a book, but I think it's pretty frickin' sleasy to charge extra for books!

 

[oly5050user]

I think advertising certification sans book is total BS. In order to be certified you have to have the book, so the price of certification has to include the book. Obviously you give a discount if they have their own and you can just sell them a book, but I think it's pretty frickin' sleasy to charge extra for books!

So when you go to school/college they include books in the courses?
When you pay for the ow course you are NOT paying for certification,you are paying for lessons so that you can pass certification requirements.Not everyone who pays gets certified.

 

[diver 85]

Sy, I would have done it differently.With you feeling that strongly toward YMCA, I would have waited on the course(You really didn't need nitrox to survive your time there) on the island, taken at YMCA in the last few weeks(@ home apparently in Guer-See) & be ready for Nitrox on CZM as we speak....But that's me........good luck...

 

[DandyDon]

Major difference between college courses and retail training sales.

But I still go with the "buyer beware" approach. When sytech shopped to buy the course, he could have clarified then what the course included and that the card would be mailed directly to him. From his profile pic, I gather that he's been purchasing in the retail world long enough to know that.

Sytech, I see you have 50-99 dives in 5 years, so while this may be only a vacation activity for you, you are still welcome to discuss purchases with us before you buy if you wish. A couple of other suggestions...

> You have your paper Nitrox card from your course, right? That, or a similar confirmation from your Inst is all you need for you vacation.

> I really don't use Nitrox on Cozumel multilevel dives unless I'm doing 3 or more divers in a day. I urge all dives to get the card ASAP after OW so they'll be prepared for when it is indicated, but it's not so much there - depending on the actual dive plans. If the whole boat has one Nitrox tank onboard, and the whole boat wants to do two 60-100 ft dives back to back, sure - use it on the second dive; or if the whole boat has two Nitrox tanks onboard and wants to do two 60-100 dives back to back with a 15 min SI, better; but you likely will not see either case on your trip. Typicall there, you'll have air divers on every boat, you'll do longer SIs, and your second dive will be a shallower one.