Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

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I prefer the books charged separately. My hubby and I take all our classes together. We only have to buy 1 set of books and our shop lets us photocopy the chapter questions to answer. This can save us $50.-$80. a class. Heck, in the past year we have saved over $150. that way. ++If you don't trust your instructor, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. ++ Big thing I do is... ask questions when booking my courses... next up.... "rescue diver" woo hoo.

Jill (aka..puke girl):l:
 
Singling out one agency for a remark like that is irrational.

I don't think so...my certs are mostly PADI, but I have had the impression PADI courses are relatively weak, compared to NAUI, GUE, and a few others.

They are geared towards getting the most people certed and making the max money for that. (nothing inherently wrong with that, but the course requirements are far from rigorous, lets not kid ourselves)

The books are by far the weakest link, I'm not sure I could ever buy another PADI book again, with a gun to my head. There just is not anything substantive in them.

I don't dislike PADI, they serve a purpose...but those books being traded for currency is a real accomplishment on their part. Saving them as reference is pointless except to be able to regurg the "PADI answer" once beyond that, they take up too much space, IMO.

There are some excellent PADI instructors out there, not sure PADI should take credit for that though.
 
catherine96821:
The books are by far the weakest link, I'm not sure I could ever buy another PADI book again, with a gun to my head. There just is not anything substantive in them.

I don't dislike PADI, they serve a purpose...but those books being traded for currency is a real accomplishment on their part. Saving them as reference is pointless except to be able to regurg the "PADI answer" once beyond that, they take up too much space, IMO.

There are some excellent PADI instructors out there, not sure PADI should take credit for that though.

Remember Catherine, you are a 1%er. Most new divers are not the extreme, adventuruous, inteligent, fit (hot!), perceptive, committed person with a strong circle of equals and more experienced friends that you are. Most vacation divers should look over their OW and AOW books before each trip at least.
 
lol..oh, okay then.

It's true that I forget how long I have been diving, if the PADI books were about boat mechanics, they would be at the perfect level for me to start learning!

and another light just came on...if more tourist divers are spending time with their families and enjoying nature because of a managable class, then that has to be a good thing.

I have been disappointed in the things that have been "oversighted" and the types of things that are not.

The book thing is sleezy and reaks of multilevel marketing.
Some resorts have guest libraries with books, guess PADI did not like that.
people traveling with crew kits is not practical though...could they make the box any bigger, if they tried? "leave only bubbles"..but lets chop down some more trees, for those boxes. See, this is where they sort of lose some credibilty about being serious.
 
Most vacation divers should look over their OW and AOW books before each trip at least.
No way...!?

Did he also say "hot"...?
 
sytech:
Problem is YMCA courses are very hard to find outside of the USA.
And no "it doesn't all depend on the instructor". Just as Harvard cultivates a certain mindset compared to a local community college I think the same can be said of certification agencies. That's not to say that all Harvard grads are geniuses and all community college grads are "less bright". However "on average" it certainly is true.
Some thoughts here. I think the YMCA course is basicly a CMAS course, and therefore one of the most widely spread around the world.
The "cultivating" environment comes more from the diveshop and the local habits than from the agency, just like Harvard is only a local "degree shop":wink:
Costs: I charge only the materials. The course is free if it takes more than a month. If someone is in a hurry it's gonna cost.
 
halemano:
I think advertising certification sans book is total BS. In order to be certified you have to have the book, so the price of certification has to include the book. Obviously you give a discount if they have their own and you can just sell them a book, but I think it's pretty frickin' sleasy to charge extra for books!.

catherine96821:
The book thing is sleezy and reaks of multilevel marketing. Some resorts have guest libraries with books, guess PADI did not like that. People traveling with crew kits is not practical though...could they make the box any bigger, if they tried? "leave only bubbles"..but lets chop down some more trees, for those boxes.
Folks, this whole thread astonishes me. Is it ‘sleazy’ for major universities to charge separately (yes, read that as EXTRA) for books that you need for the courses for which you have already paid tuition (and fees)? Of course not! Is it ‘sleazy’ for a physician to charge separately for professional fees (the office visit charge) and the laboratory tests? Of course not! It is sleazy for an automobile repair shop to itemize separately the labor charges, and the parts charges? Of course not! In fact, itemization of charges (and separation of labor charges and parts costs) is something that most organizations and businesses do now in response to complaints from customers who felt that it is ‘sleazy’ to roll them all up into one ‘bottom line' figure. There is nothing SLEAZY about this at all, for goodness sake. A good shop or good instructor will tell students up front, ‘The cost of the course is $XXX, AND the cost of the ‘crewpak’, or course materials, or whatever, is an additional $XXX'. Dare I suggest that a reasonably capable consumer will ask, 'What are the charges for the course? Are course materials extra?' It is up to the instructor or shop to determine if they wish to bundle the charges or price them separately. Most separate them. Some do not. Either way is OK, as long as they are forthcoming about what they are doing.

I have carried PADI course materials on out of country trips and never found them to be oversized or problematic. You can actually take the books and materials out of the box and carry them in a briefcase or suitcase.

As for PADI books, they are intended to be standardized. Sometimes, a student / diver views them as useless, other times they don’t. That is going to be true for any agency’s course materials. BTW, that is also true for many undergraduate textbooks. And, most educational institutions do not absorb the added cost of maintaining a library with enough copies of textbooks, for all courses, to allow all students to simply check the text out for the semester / quarter and avoid buying them. Or, in the rare cases where they do, they simply boost student fees to cover the cost.

rawls:
Dive operations who teach using a certain agency must teach in accordance to the Standards and Practices as set forth from that specific agency.
Well stated! Going back to the original question, every competent certifying agency want to be sure that their courses are taught according to their standards. PADI is no exception, and they are VERY interested in knowing if an instructor, or a shop offering PADI instruction deviates from standards. If you take PADI AOW in North Carolina, it should be equivalent in content to PADI AOW in Virginia, and California, with the obvious exception of variations in local diving conditions which may determine the environment in which you make your dives.

Finally, I must echo the comment that PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc are all in business for profit. It is called the ‘dive industry’, people. It consists of education, of equipment, of experience (charters, resorts, etc.). If someone does not charge for a course, they usually anticipate making up the costs elsewhere (equipment sales, charter fees, etc.). Last time I checked, that seemed to work pretty well.

As for where the c-cards are sent, the posts are correct – they are sent where the instructor says to send them. Usually, they are mailed to wherever the forms were submitted. When I did my OW, I did the academic and pool work in NC, then went on a referral to a shop in FL for the dives (it was winter). The cards were sent to the shop in FL, who called me and asked if I wanted them mailed to me in NC (which I did), or was I going to be back in the area? It was not a problem to have them mailed (and, by golly, they didn't even charge me for the postage). PADI sends them where the instructor says to send them. It should not be a big deal. If the shop where you did your cert doesn’t want to mail them to you, report the shop to PADI, but don’t get annoyed with PADI for asking you to pay a fee for a replacement. It costs extra money to generate the card, and mail it, when they have already done it once.
 
TeddyDiver,

If you say that "The cultivating' environment comes more from the diveshop and the local habits than from the agency" then what the heck is the influence of the Agency supposed to be? As I'm coming to see it's very minimal other than what I said earlier. Shop pays Agency to place Agencies' stickers on dive shop windows.

I appreciate everybody's feedback on this but I think the issue has become overcomplicated and I'm feeling quite cynical about this whole damn thing. Certainly I was foolish in not getting clarification (in writing, in ink and notarized) that a NAUI Nitrox Course might even include a photocopy of a dive table at least. Silly me. It won't ever happen again.

Moreover, I have contacted NAUI to ask them what does their "NAUI Nitrox Course" actually mean? Is it an oral presentation only with a few dives? Is it presented in prose or song form and is there no necessity for any booklet or any literature of any kind? Is the "NAUI Nitrox Course" downloaded to my Ipod, listened to it and then I meet some guy named "Jed" at a dive shop to take my 2 dives? Again, I thank everyone for their feedback but my question remains-"What the heck is a "NAUI Nitrox Course" supposed to be? Simple question or so I thought.

As I said I will be waiting for NAUI's reply on this and am expecting something like the following:

"The NAUI Nitrox Course includes information on various gas mixtures to increase botton time and decrease surface interval times. The Instructor may, at his or her discretion modify or change the course content depending upon the whims and caprice of said instructor. In fact, the Instructor has the prerogative to change the course content significantly enough to certify you as an "Underwater Coral Surgeon" which is one of our new courses:)"

I'll let you know how they actually respond.


Sy




TeddyDiver:
Some thoughts here. I think the YMCA course is basicly a CMAS course, and therefore one of the most widely spread around the world.
The "cultivating" environment comes more from the diveshop and the local habits than from the agency, just like Harvard is only a local "degree shop":wink:
Costs: I charge only the materials. The course is free if it takes more than a month. If someone is in a hurry it's gonna cost.
 
Colliam7,

You do make some good points in this regard. That's exactly why I have requested of NAUI that they tell me what the NAUI Nitrox Course is supposed to be comprised of. If they tell me that the course requires "no materials" then I'm fine with that.

However I am willing to bet that the "The NAUI Nitrox Course" is supposed to INCLUDE some type of literature (chart, booklet whatever) because I'm virtually certain that the shop owner was trying to "get over" on me.

If necessary please prepare the crow well done, but I don't think I'll be dining on it thanks. I will let you know what I find out.


Sy







Colliam7:
Folks, this whole thread astonishes me. Is it ‘sleazy’ for major universities to charge separately (yes, read that as EXTRA) for books that you need for the courses for which you have already paid tuition (and fees)? Of course not! Is it ‘sleazy’ for a physician to charge separately for professional fees (the office visit charge) and the laboratory tests? Of course not! It is sleazy for an automobile repair shop to itemize separately the labor charges, and the parts charges? Of course not! In fact, itemization of charges (and separation of labor charges and parts costs) is something that most organizations and businesses do now in response to complaints from customers who felt that it is ‘sleazy’ to roll them all up into one ‘bottom line' figure. There is nothing SLEAZY about this at all, for goodness sake. A good shop or good instructor will tell students up front, ‘The cost of the course is $XXX, AND the cost of the ‘crewpak’, or course materials, or whatever, is an additional $XXX'. Dare I suggest that a reasonably capable consumer will ask, 'What are the charges for the course? Are course materials extra?' It is up to the instructor or shop to determine if they wish to bundle the charges or price them separately. Most separate them. Some do not. Either way is OK, as long as they are forthcoming about what they are doing.

I have carried PADI course materials on out of country trips and never found them to be oversized or problematic. You can actually take the books and materials out of the box and carry them in a briefcase or suitcase.

As for PADI books, they are intended to be standardized. Sometimes, a student / diver views them as useless, other times they don’t. That is going to be true for any agency’s course materials. BTW, that is also true for many undergraduate textbooks. And, most educational institutions do not absorb the added cost of maintaining a library with enough copies of textbooks, for all courses, to allow all students to simply check the text out for the semester / quarter and avoid buying them. Or, in the rare cases where they do, they simply boost student fees to cover the cost.


Well stated! Going back to the original question, every competent certifying agency want to be sure that their courses are taught according to their standards. PADI is no exception, and they are VERY interested in knowing if an instructor, or a shop offering PADI instruction deviates from standards. If you take PADI AOW in North Carolina, it should be equivalent in content to PADI AOW in Virginia, and California, with the obvious exception of variations in local diving conditions which may determine the environment in which you make your dives.

Finally, I must echo the comment that PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc are all in business for profit. It is called the ‘dive industry’, people. It consists of education, of equipment, of experience (charters, resorts, etc.). If someone does not charge for a course, they usually anticipate making up the costs elsewhere (equipment sales, charter fees, etc.). Last time I checked, that seemed to work pretty well.

As for where the c-cards are sent, the posts are correct – they are sent where the instructor says to send them. Usually, they are mailed to wherever the forms were submitted. When I did my OW, I did the academic and pool work in NC, then went on a referral to a shop in FL for the dives (it was winter). The cards were sent to the shop in FL, who called me and asked if I wanted them mailed to me in NC (which I did), or was I going to be back in the area? It was not a problem to have them mailed (and, by golly, they didn't even charge me for the postage). PADI sends them where the instructor says to send them. It should not be a big deal. If the shop where you did your cert doesn’t want to mail them to you, report the shop to PADI, but don’t get annoyed with PADI for asking you to pay a fee for a replacement. It costs extra money to generate the card, and mail it, when they have already done it once.
 
halemano:
I think advertising certification sans book is total BS.

Well... I can see that from one point of view... but let me offer another. My wife and I are taking the same courses... With the LDS's blessing, we buy one book, photocopy the worksheets to hand in... We've already saved some on the class out of the gate and still have the book and worksheets in the library... or... (you can figure out what you want to do with your extra copy).

My LDS does both NAUI and PADI... customer's choice...

Just another take on the 'sell the books separate' issue...
 
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