Local Man drowns at Jackson Blue Springs

[lamont]

lamont, well to answer such a question is hard. But if he were Cave 1/2, might that training not have allowed the progression of thoughts/acts that enventually led to him getting stuck? And, the report stated, "panic" as the "major contributer" to his death; might the training, earned in Cave 1/2, have lessoned the chance of the panic after gettting stuck?

That all seems to be fairly speculative as to panic being the major cause and that more training would have necessarily prevented the fatality. Not quite as solid as OW divers inside caves without cave gear...

I'm wondering if there's a more solid smoking gun here where someone cave 2 trained would not have done something he did (e.g. go into a restriction so tight it needed sidemount or an option #1?). Maybe Jeff can help answer that question if he checks out the area...

 

[daniel f aleman]

Well, concerning this fatality, all we can do is speculate, other than to say that he drowned. I mention "panic", as it was the word that was used in the report, and it was used probably because the recovery diver "seeing" some evidence of it. I will say this, the chance of a Cave 2 diver "getting stuck" is remote.

But crap happens...

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I'm not a cave diver, so maybe these are irrelevant questions but: The guy got stuck, his buddy left to get help, when the recovery diver finds the victim he has his tanks off. Wouldn't removal of the tanks, make someone unstuck? Or how could you get your tanks off, if you were really stuck?

And lastly, a protocol question: If you buddy is really stuck in a cave, wouldn't you try to get him to ditch the tanks and come out without the tanks?

 

[daniel f aleman]

And lastly, a protocol question: If you buddy is really stuck in a cave, wouldn't you try to get him to ditch the tanks and come out without the tanks?

This will be investgated, including by those in law inforcement.

 

[Spectre]

I'm not a cave diver, so maybe these are irrelevant questions but: The guy got stuck, his buddy left to get help, when the recovery diver finds the victim he has his tanks off. Wouldn't removal of the tanks, make someone unstuck? Or how could you get your tanks off, if you were really stuck?

It really depends on the circumstances of how he got stuck. There's a few places in JB that are very low and you're in the silt to squeeze through when you're on backmount. Also, there's a lot of vertical fissure cracks [where it's actually easier on backmount vs. sidemount, because the sidemount guys have to swim sideways].

But the point is it really depends on the location. See; if you're stuck at the bottom of one of those vertical fissures and you remove your gear; your tanks may still be stuck, and you've got a lot of room where you can travel between your tanks and you... since your weight is contained on your rig.

So if you unhook your drysuit, and lose your grip on your rig with your new found buoyancy... you better hope you have strong jaws.

 

[Dive-aholic]

You dont HAVE to check in with the Sherrif if you dont use the park. The spring is accessible by boat. Ive be about 1000ft back in JB, and theres plenty of places to get stuck in the side passages. However the lack of official training probably contributed to the panic. It does sound like the guy had some experience at least.

Right. Except I know the surviving buddy and he has an annual and usually drives into the park. It is possible he took a boat this time, but I read elsewhere that they signed in.

You bet your @ss it is! Just because I have been flying planes with my dad since I was 5, does that mean that I should go up in a cessna without formal training? Just because I have been hunting all my life, does that mean that the military didn't have to send me to Sniper school???

Experience does not replace training, and training does not equal experience.

These are completely AVOIDABLE accidents period, and I for one am sick and tired of people dying in caves. The training is there. Hell, Jim Wyatt will certify you in 1 week! So there's no reason in the world that this guy couldn't have got proper, correct and complete training.

This is senseless. We should count our blessings that Politicians aren't getting on the "Deadly caves at state parks" bandwagon! If they do, the only place we'll be able to cave dive, is online!

NO CHEERS!

Mike

First, I also read your other post:

I would just like to say that I let my emotions get the better of me. It's just that when a caver dies, I feel like I lost a family member. Whether I knew him or not is irrelevant. We are a tight community. I apologize if my post offended anyone, as it was not targeted at the victim. As Rick so eloquently put it, sometimes situations just turn out bad. Whether it was training, physiological, environmental etc... doesn't really matter now. We lost 1 of our own.

I feel the same way. I feel like I lost a family member. This is especially hard on me because JB is my home cave. I bought a house 10 minutes from there and have done most of my cave dives in that system since then.

Yes, the training is there. But like Rick said, would the training have helped? What about the Alan Mill Pond death last month. That diver was trained. Who trained Sheck? Who trained JJ and George? I'm not implying that the JB victim is at that level, but none of use know. A card doesn't mean anything.

well... he was 700 feet into the system, then went off the main tunnel, then got into a restriction of some sort

From what I can put together based on the various reports is that the jump he took started about 400' into the system.

okay, yeah, he was clearly stuck in a restriction as well, so that would have exceeded intro or cave 1. still, where did this dive go wrong in such a way that a full cave or cave 2 trained diver couldn't have had it happen to them?

Refer to my comments above. Lack of a card doesn't mean lack of training.

And lastly, a protocol question: If you buddy is really stuck in a cave, wouldn't you try to get him to ditch the tanks and come out without the tanks?

Situations vary. Like I said, I know the surviving buddy. I don't know what happened in this situation, but I don't see him as being the type to just abandon his buddy. My guess would be he went for help when he couldn't think of anything else to do.

 

[H2Andy]

From what I can put together based on the various reports is that the jump he took started about 400' into the system.

i was going from the press info, which said 600 and 700 feet

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Situations vary. Like I said, I know the surviving buddy. I don't know what happened in this situation, but I don't see him as being the type to just abandon his buddy. My guess would be he went for help when he couldn't think of anything else to do.

I never meant to imply that he abandoned his buddy. I was just wondering. The desription of vertical and horizontal cracks in a muddy bottom all sounds very confusing and scary to me, especially the part about it being tight enough to trap the tanks by themselves.

 

[Spectre]

From what I can put together based on the various reports is that the jump he took started about 400' into the system.

I'm not sure which report you're 'trusting', but it doesn't sound right from the descriptions I've heard [weighed based on my own personal algorithm].

400' puts you before the first breakdown pile. The only thing that makes sense in that room is Goodman, which'll run you around to between the first and second breakdown pile. More likely it's the passage past the first breakdown pile, behind a rock, that has a passageway to the left, or heads straight and comes out further up the line, before the vertical line that heads up into the dome. That area is a little more accurate on distance, and there might be other passages to the left there, i've only recently started taking a really close look along that wall.

I believe the 600-700 is accurate.

 

[Spectre]

Right. Except I know the surviving buddy and he has an annual and usually drives into the park. It is possible he took a boat this time, but I read elsewhere that they signed in.

you are making a big assumption that they had planned to dive together beforehand and didn't run into each other by coincidence and decide to dive together.

Recall that you have to either present a card, or have one on file, to sign in at the sheriff station and get a key. If he had no cave certifications, he wouldn't have been able to sign in.