Local Man drowns at Jackson Blue Springs

[daniel f aleman]

Parker Turner trained George; JJ was trained by Lloyd Bailey; Sheck, by The Underwater Gods. All of us need the training...

 

[Rick Murchison]

In this case all we "know" (and that's from reports) is that the victim didn't have a cave card. We have absolutely no idea how much training and/or experience he had.
Rick

 

[Dive-aholic]

I'm not sure which report you're 'trusting', but it doesn't sound right from the descriptions I've heard [weighed based on my own personal algorithm].

400' puts you before the first breakdown pile. The only thing that makes sense in that room is Goodman, which'll run you around to between the first and second breakdown pile. More likely it's the passage past the first breakdown pile, behind a rock, that has a passageway to the left, or heads straight and comes out further up the line, before the vertical line that heads up into the dome. That area is a little more accurate on distance, and there might be other passages to the left there, i've only recently started taking a really close look along that wall.

I believe the 600-700 is accurate.

That's what I thought at first, then I saw the description of squirrely tunnel and thought that might be the passage. I haven't been all the way through it so don't know for sure. Let me know what you find this weekend. It will be May before I'm back.

you are making a big assumption that they had planned to dive together beforehand and didn't run into each other by coincidence and decide to dive together.

Recall that you have to either present a card, or have one on file, to sign in at the sheriff station and get a key. If he had no cave certifications, he wouldn't have been able to sign in.

True, my bad. I did assume they planned to dive together. But...

...ask Edd sometime. He'll tell you about the OW divers someone at the sheriff's office signed in and gave a key to. :shakehead I also saw cave training going on there in January, from the park. According to Jackson County regs, only full cave divers are allowed park access.

Parker Turner trained George; JJ was trained by Lloyd Bailey; Sheck, by The Underwater Gods. All of us need the training...

Okay, who trained Parker and Lloyd? My point is a card hasn't always been necessary to show training.

 

[Spectre]

That's what I thought at first, then I saw the description of squirrely tunnel and thought that might be the passage. I haven't been all the way through it so don't know for sure.

That's Goodman and it starts in the first room, that's actually before the first breakdown. I've not actually been through the whole passage yet; there's a duck-under that I don't really like the looks of. Past the first breakdown pile there's a big rock on the left with a line behind it. About 10 feet down that there's another line to the left... which is the other end of that 'squirrely' passage.

But if you keep on that line, it comes around and comes back down near a line that goes up high. That's more about the right distance; but I'm not even sure if that's far enough in.

Maybe if they were doing it from the other side and not starting at goodman, it makes sense... but; I dunno.

...ask Edd sometime. He'll tell you about the OW divers someone at the sheriff's office signed in and gave a key to. :shakehead I also saw cave training going on there in January, from the park. According to Jackson County regs, only full cave divers are allowed park access.

That's actually something that's been in discussions with between the sheriff's office and the divers. I'm not sure the status of it.

I suppose people could slip by the sheriff's office by just saying their on record, but I wouldn't want to get caught, since I've seen them flip through the book before. Every other time I've seen them card very religiously.

 

[Spectre]

Okay, who trained Parker and Lloyd? My point is a card hasn't always been necessary to show training.

Which came first, the diver or the cert card?

 

[redrover]

Please excuse this hijack.
Once again I ask; is there some sort of cave diver terminology for dummies resource I can acquire, preferably with lines, arrows and diagrams? I’d really like to understand the geology and hydrology stuff you guys use as it relates to diving.

And thank you Spectre for the descriptive. It’s the best I’ve read to have some idea what the topography is relating to diving in it.

 

[Spectre]

Please excuse this hijack.
Once again I ask; is there some sort of cave diver terminology for dummies resource I can acquire, preferably with lines, arrows and diagrams? I’d really like to understand the geology and hydrology stuff you guys use as it relates to diving.

There's some descriptions of stuff in cave diving manuals, but what specifically are you curious about? [sorry, I'm kinda blind to what terminology normal people don't get ]

It's not the greatest resource, but... it's all I got. I have a slideshow from a few dives we did last fall, you can at least see what we're talking about with 'breakdown' and that sort of thing:

http://www.pontificatingnobody.com/Videos/marianna.html

[and it's cool anyway... but you gotta have the music going, since the pictures kinda suck]

 

[Kim]

That's a very large leap to conclude he was stuck trying to pass through a no mount restriction. There are many places where you get yourself through one direction, but when you turn around to exit, you can't quite find the position that allowed you to get through. It's called getting keyholed, and it can very quickly cause you to soil your undergarments.

Well...I'm not sure I guessed which way he might have been going! Stuck is stuck...and that's what the original report seemed to suggest if I read it correctly.

However...that wasn't completely what I was trying to say. I agree...if it was a conclusion then it would be a very large leap indeed. However....i'm not convinced that it would be a larger leap than putting it down to....let's say....lack of training?

Seriously. We are ALL responsible for ourselves when we dip beneath the surface. Yes...we can push too far but you know what? I'd maintain that more highly trained technical divers die diving than your average OW reef tourist. The dives are different....the mindset is different...the stakes are different. At the end of the day the rules, and the training etc, were ALL created by people who didn't have them and didn't follow them. Scuba isn't unique in this at all. I'm not for a moment suggesting that everyone goes off into the blue, trail blazing (survival rates at that level become something to consider). I'm just saying that one can't automatically equate making a mistake, and paying the price, with a lack of training. It MIGHT be so......but it might NOT be.

Of course......I'm just guessing though.......

This thread is titled "Pushing Limits". It's a fair title because that can always lead to trouble. However.....sometimes the thing that you've done MANY times before and you'd no way consider a limit can turn around and bite you in the butt. That's a reality of diving.....or even simply life.

 

[jviehe]

There is also this amazing video of Jackson Blue. The main tunnel is actually as big as a subway tunnel. Its the side tunnels that get tight.

http://www.laukien.org/JacksonBlueSept2006.wmv

 

[maj75]

Pushing limits is how we got where we are today in this sport and sub-specialities like tech and cave diving. Read the current article about the guys who were doing the Doria in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. What they did and where they went resulted in opening up vast new areas to explore by making much deeper deapths accessible by anyone with the money for the equipment and training. There were no "tables", computers, re-breathers, etc. They designed and built their own stuff, without benefit of engineering or marketing degrees.

Caving is no different, the early guys made up the protocol as they learned and pushed the conventional wisdom as to what was possible to do underwater.

A lot of those guys are not around anymore. But neither are the early test pilots and mountain climbers.

Hell, if we had waited for someone to "train" those guys, we would all be snorkling...

What level of risk an individual is willing to accept is pretty personal. Training will never eliminate the risks. We don't know that Training had anything to do with this accident. Just becasue the "trained" guy made it out, does not prove anything.