Local Man drowns at Jackson Blue Springs

[Rick Murchison]

I have temporarily closed this thread while I build a "very important announcement"
We'll reopen in a few minutes.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

You bet your @ss it is! Just because I have been flying planes with my dad since I was 5, does that mean that I should go up in a cessna without formal training? Just because I have been hunting all my life, does that mean that the military didn't have to send me to Sniper school???

Experience does not replace training, and training does not equal experience.

These are completely AVOIDABLE accidents period, and I for one am sick and tired of people dying in caves. The training is there. Hell, Jim Wyatt will certify you in 1 week! So there's no reason in the world that this guy couldn't have got proper, correct and complete training.

This is senseless. We should count our blessings that Politicians aren't getting on the "Deadly caves at state parks" bandwagon! If they do, the only place we'll be able to cave dive, is online!

NO CHEERS!

Mike

I am seldom moved to extreme passion by anything in the cyberworld. But this piece of unthinking trash has done that.

No, and I mean none, endeavor is without risk. No, and I mean none, sport, let alone scuba in any form, is so safe that an accident is completely avoidable as claimed here. Even if the probability of success is 99% there is a remaining 1% that sooner, or later, will catch up with someone.

None of us was there. None of us knows the specific facts and circumstances. If this is not correct please post so we know.

But, from what is on the net it seems the odds just caught up with this guy. It happens.

So, lets not blame the victim. Instead, lets mourn the loss of a fellow human being.

Ok, guys, before y'all get into a pissin' contest here, let's take a break and review accident analysis a bit.
Both of you have good points.
A principle tenet of accident analysis is that every accident is preventable.
In the extreme, that may come down to "this mishap could have been prevented by the victim not being there that day" but the principle holds nonetheless. So Mike is right when he says the mishap was avoidable. Now, whether it was avoidable through a one week formal cave course or not - well, we just don't have enough information, and probably never will, to assess whether such a course would have prevented this particular mishap or not. From what I gather, the victim was an experienced cave diver, whether a graduate of a formal course or not. It is entirely possible to learn cave diving from other cave divers without ever attending a formal course, and at this time we have no idea just how accomplished a cave diver this victim was - all we know for sure is that on this day he made a fatal decision; however, the fact that formally trained cave divers die in spite of their training shows that insufficient good judgement and fatal decisions aren't the exclusive domain of the untrained, and to lay this one at the feet of "training" is a bit of a stretch at this point.
---
Now, I'm gonna open this thread back up. Y'all play nice, ok?
Rick

 

[Mike Edmonston]

I would just like to say that I let my emotions get the better of me. It's just that when a caver dies, I feel like I lost a family member. Whether I knew him or not is irrelevant. We are a tight community. I apologize if my post offended anyone, as it was not targeted at the victim. As Rick so eloquently put it, sometimes situations just turn out bad. Whether it was training, physiological, environmental etc... doesn't really matter now. We lost 1 of our own.

My condolenses to the family

Nuff said..

Mike

 

[lamont]

I don't know the victim, but from the reports I've read it appears he has been diving the 3 most popular systems in Marianna for several years. Cave training hasn't been around forever. Who's to say this guy didn't start cave diving back in the early days before cave training was available. If that's the case, would it be necessary to get "officially" trained?

Yeah, I've been wondering how much experience the diver had, and if this could have just as easily happened to someone with an intro cave or cave 1 card. It sounds like he was diving doubles, so this wasn't your average OW single-tank diver who pokes their head too far into a cave and gets bit...

 

[H2Andy]

well... he was 700 feet into the system, then went off the main tunnel, then got into a restriction of some sort

it does sound like someone comfortable with doing this sort of thing

 

[daniel f aleman]

We cave divers all know the big five rules, and I post these for any diver wanting to learn to dive in caves:

1. Be Trained for Cave Diving, and Remain Within the Limits of Your Training
2. Maintain a Continuous Guideline to the Cave Exit
3. Keep Two Thirds of Your Starting Gas Volume in Reserve to Exit the Cave
4. Remain Within the Safest Possible Operating Limits for Your Breathing Media
5. Use Three Sources of Light

 

[Spectre]

Yeah, I've been wondering how much experience the diver had, and if this could have just as easily happened to someone with an intro cave or cave 1 card. It sounds like he was diving doubles, so this wasn't your average OW single-tank diver who pokes their head too far into a cave and gets bit...

A trained diver diving within their limits? Then no, it's not something that could happen to someone not <insert training/mentored/experienced> to a level to perform jumps, since the incident occurred in a side passage.

I know the general area, but I don't know the precise passage he was stuck in, so I can't make a valid call on what it would take to not get stuck there. I'm considering heading there this weekend and checking out the precise location.

 

[ArcticDiver]

I would just like to say that I let my emotions get the better of me. It's just that when a caver dies, I feel like I lost a family member. Whether I knew him or not is irrelevant. We are a tight community. I apologize if my post offended anyone, as it was not targeted at the victim. As Rick so eloquently put it, sometimes situations just turn out bad. Whether it was training, physiological, environmental etc... doesn't really matter now. We lost 1 of our own.

My condolenses to the family

Nuff said..

Mike

Over my short life I've done a lot of things that are considered hazardous. In that I've learned that there are always circumstances out there that can bite, sometimes fatally, no matter what the training or experience. That is what risk analysis is all about.

I empathize with you over the loss of a comrade. I join you in mourning for him and for his family.

 

[lamont]

A trained diver diving within their limits? Then no, it's not something that could happen to someone not <insert training/mentored/experienced> to a level to perform jumps, since the incident occurred in a side passage.

okay, yeah, he was clearly stuck in a restriction as well, so that would have exceeded intro or cave 1. still, where did this dive go wrong in such a way that a full cave or cave 2 trained diver couldn't have had it happen to them?

 

[daniel f aleman]

lamont, well to answer such a question is hard. But if he were Cave 1/2, might that training not have allowed the progression of thoughts/acts that enventually led to him getting stuck? And, the report stated, "panic" as the "major contributer" to his death; might the training, earned in Cave 1/2, have lessoned the chance of the panic after gettting stuck?