leisurepro worth it?

[MikeFerrara]

They also tell a store what else they can carry. They also force then to buy their whole line. I get knocked out of the game long before I get to the part where price fixing is an issue.

If I know of a good sellinig reg, I cant go buy some and resell them. I must be willing to buy and commit to selling the whole line. I have less muscle here than the consumer. SP holds the dive shop by the arms and the consumer punches him out. SP and LP and the consumer are all doing fine.

 

[grouchyturtle]

That's why I alway buy my car from my local gas station because that is where I get gas and repairs. Klyde won't even do an oil change on a car he didn't sell.

SP holds the dive shop by the arms and the consumer punches him out. SP and LP and the consumer are all doing fine.

Oh I feel so guilty now! It's the manufacturers that are screwing you not us. If we pay your ridiculous prices, then the LDS and the consumer would both be getting screwed while the manufacturer is doing fine.

No matter what though the manufacture is always doing fine.

The LDS and the manufacturer are the ones in this to make money. We are the ones spending our hard earned cash on this crap. We are the only ones not making anything, regardless of how crappy the profit margin may be. Therefore if it isn't working either do something to change it or stop *****ing and go into another business, but don't give me crap because I don't allow myself to be screwed like you.

 

[MikeFerrara]

grunzster

I have a feeling I shouldn't waist my efforts on you but here goes anyway. My goal in this thread and others like it has been to educate divers in how the industry really operates. Why? Because the manufacturers tell the DS how they will do business while others manage to obtain and sell the product without similar restraints. The result is we have costs and therefore markups that others don't have. The dive consumer doesn't have a problem withholding business from the DS but they don't seem to avoid the manufacturer. Therefore the manufacturer has no insentive to change their practices. A small DS in this climate has few choices. We play ball or we don't.

In it to make money? Haven't made any yet. What I have done is invested all I have and years of work and training in order to contribute something to diving I see seriously lacking.

What have you done? You don't have the sense to use your dollars to send a message to the manufacturers. Thats another thing I am trying to change.

A short recap of some of the points I have made:
We must be a full service DS to obtain a dealership

Manufacturers (some) tell us how much , and in some cases what we must buy. That means I must buy and sell even their products that don't sell or I don't want to sell. To sell them I may even have to lie to my students. To sell enough I need to pump students through quickly. To that end some manufacturers even try to tell you how to teach in a way that will sell more of our products. You think the agencies are why you get a short incomplete class? Think again!

Some manufacturers tell us what and how much of other brands we can carry.

I can't be authorized to sevice a brand that I don't sell. Why not get the parts on the street and service them anyway? Because my insurance company won't touch me if I do. I essentially take on the liability of a manufacturer. So...even the services we offer are limited.

Now go slow and think hard, can you see how these things raise our costs through the roof and worst of all limit the selection we can afford to offer? Let me further illustrate the problem. If a manufacturer has a hot selling reg I cant offer it for sale unless I commit to the entire line and a minimum volume (large up front investment) and in some cases take other things out of my store. This limits me to one or two brands and severly limits my market. I limits the selection you have in your local store and sets the price (by setting the overhead high). Kind of forces you to go online to get a good selection and a decent price, doesn't it.

The manufacturer does these things to force me to have all their stuff and little of anyone elses stuff on the wall. They do it in an attempt to for you to go (for service) to a store with only their stuff on the wall. Do you think I only have two brands of regs because thats all I want to offer? If you come into my store and want to compare Zeagle regs to SP regs, do you think I wouldn't like to have both to offer at a decent price? Do you think I would like to help you choose the best for you? But...since I cant have both (unlikely) do you think I cut my own throat by giving honest info that may lead you to selecting the brand I can't carry?

In the end you buy from a grey market dealer who doesn't have these limitations and related costs and you think we tried to cheat you and that you outsmarted someone. What you actually did was allow the manufacturer to have their cake and eat it too. They still sell the stuff (online) and when you come to my shop it's still there to look at. It's perfect for them. And you in your wisdom conclude that you are a smart consumer and I am a crook.

 

[Genesis]

that he concludes that you're a crook.

I do think that I conclude that you're not thinking this thing through, as I've stated before Mike.

If you had, I believe you would conclude that the practices of these manufacturers hurts you in many ways, including (to you anyway) debasing the value of your training.

I believe that you would also conclude that you should get involved in fighting these practices and attempting to stop them.

However, that's my belief - and its obviously one you don't share. I'd be interested in WHY you don't share it - so far I've been unable to determine that!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis
Not sure what I can do to SP or Aqualung or some of the others. If they have broken a law I couldn't prove it. I sure can't afford to sue anyone even if I had grounds. However, I don't do business with them and do tell what my experiences with them have been. Now, if their sales fell off that might sway them.

I think what is needed is consumer presure but we won't see that because there are enough deals out there to satisfy them and they blame the LDS and the agencies for the things that they don't like. Everything is in order we have good prices available and a scape goat for the things we don't like. You can tell from the responses to some of my posts that not everyone wants to hear the truth or that they (as consumers) may bare some of the responsibility.

I am open to suggestions.

 

[Genesis]

you don't need to sue someone personally to have an effect.

Discussion of the matter with the state AGs offices, and with the FTC, however, carries FAR more weight than that of a consumer, because you are the one being harmed most directly.

You also have the industry inside track, since you're doing it.

Finally, you have a stake in the game because if the practice went away you could sell SP and such without these problems.

I have found that there are three groups of dive-shop owners and operators in this regard:

1. Those who think the policies are grand and wonderful. They profit from it, and they like it.

2. Those who realize that its a two-edged sword and that they're dancing with the devil. They're just not sure which devil is worse - the one they have or the one they'd get by working to change things. They won't get involved because the devil you know is usually better than the one you don't, and the risk of being wrong is significant. A lot of dive shops are in this position.

3. Those who know what's going on is wrong. They're either unhappy with it but deal because its how they stay in business, or they're unhappy with it and try to steer business to other firms, trying to influence things that way.

The problem with the folks in camp (3) is that they can't get where they want to go from where they are. You have the media touting some manufacturers over others through what I've argued are possibly-biased tests, and there's no way to verify or account for that. You have the public who WANTS those products, and who WILL go where they have to in order to get them. You have the dealers who WILL cost-shift to stay competitive, which screws YOU, because what sometimes gets offered as a "comp" is training at a discount (or even "free"), which debases your training program's value.

The fix is to (1) convince the people in camp (2) that they'd be better off with an open marketplace, and for those in camp (3) and those who can be dragged along from (2) to apply pressure to fix it. You don't have to sue - that's the wonder of the government when it comes to anti-competitive issues, in that they tend to be interested all on their own. You just have to give them enough information for them to think they've got something they can run with. If they judge that they CAN, and that there IS a legal problem with it, it is their job to chase that all on their own and without your money being involved.

The case to make is that the consumer - and you - are being hurt by these practices, and that they constitute an anti-competitive effort. Frankly, from what I've seen I think its easy to make the case, but I'm not a lawyer nor do I work for the government. But what I can do is raise cain with those offices and officials, forward whatever I can get my hands on in terms of information, and in general be a "squeaky wheel."

You won't get the consumer to help you Mike, at least not in the way you want them to. You MIGHT get them to call the state AG's office (as I have) or the FTC (ditto), but you won't get them to "not" buy the product. They'll buy it all right, from the least expensive source, eschewing the local dealer - which hurts ALL OF YOU, regardless of which camp - 1, 2, or 3 - you're in.

 

[grouchyturtle]

Read Genesis' previous posts:
"Illegal practices", "Organize", "Band together", "Right letters" That is the only way it will ever change.

I know you're not trying to screw me on purpose. It's because the manufacturers are screwing you.

BUT...

If I buy somewhere else you're getting screwed, but I have a choice between me getting screwed on the price by you although it may not be your fault, or screwing you by not giving you the business. Who in their right mind would knowingly allow themself to get screwed so someone else doesn't. You want me to put the LDS needs above my own.

From what I've heard all the manufacturers pull this crap, so it's impossible for me to not buy from you and not have the manufacturers make any $$$ unless I buy everything used.

You are making money, maybe no profit, but you do have some money coming in. My point is the consumers are the only ones dishing money out with none coming in. So, you have no right to wine because we go for the lowest price. And until consumers get a % of sales, there is no reason to expect us to be part of the solution to your problems.

All I'm saying is everything Genesis has said 1,000,000,000x already. Only you can make it change. Until then you will continue to get screwed by the manufacturers. And we will have a choice between getting screwed too or not, even though not means the LDS gets screwed twice. Sorry, but I choice not.

By the way how many times can you fit screwed into one post!

 

[subwilla]

I am so impressed with all of the cogent statements going around on this topic. I'm a new scuba person, still taking classes in fact. Looking down the road at my future purchases led me to this forum.

I recently purchased some fins from LP that, on other online sites are listing at $189, and I paid $114. The no tax factor was cancelled by shipping charges, which was not prompt. When they finally did arrive I took them out of the box and they were in a bag that was very ratty looking. Even though some 'official' tags were attached, I think they may be "pre-owned," returned for some reason or another, and I'm hoping it is not mechanical failure of the fancy strap mechanisms (Mares Volo). The tops of each are significantly scuffed. I'm concerned and wonder if they are going to hold up in the Pacific Ocean. I don't know what the LDS would have charged me for them, they don't sell that style. But if I'd bought them there, I'd simply take them back before my next lesson. Now I have a hassel to deal with. I buy locally whenever possible. But, I'm not a trust-fund baby, and my buying power stretches not that far.

I really like the idea that we can all win here! So, in addition to contacting our 'public officials' what else can we do? When I make my future purchases, I'd like to support those manufacturers who are not shafting the LDS and consumer. In addition, I want to Boycott all of those manufacturers who are 'price fixing' and forcing local shops, my heroes, into unsavory or illegal contracts. And, I want to let my LDS know that I am supporting them in this way.

So, tell me what brands are people friendly. I need a lot of stuff, from a new mask, snorkel, boots, gloves, wetsuit and and on.

And, thanks for the fantastic discussion on this issue.

Willa

 

[Genesis]

there are many, if any, such brands....

That's where the problem lies.

Only the LDS can really make this change, by refusing to play and thus forcing the clauses to be dropped.

 

[psionicdfw]

Just to throw my 2 cents in here....

I have ordered 5 times from Leisure Pro now. The items have always arrived on time, as described, and new. Now realizing how low their prices are I fully expected that if I had any problems with an item I was S.O.L., and would have to deal directly with the manufacturer.

One of the items I bought from LP was a Dacor BC. A BC that developed a catastrophic leak the second time I used it. With very low expectations and for the heck of it I called LP and well, they have just been fantastic about the whole matter. No they didnt immediately refund my money (that would have been my 1st choice as I no longer wanted anything to do with this model or brand for that matter) I returned the BC so they could examine it. After they confirmed it was a bladder issue, they returned it to the manufacturer. They then credited me the value of the BC which I gladly plunked down on a Zeagle Escape. To show what extents they went to to ensure I was happy-

LP closed out last year's Escapes a month or two ago. They have none in stock. They took it upon themselves to call Zeagle and special order the new Escape before general shipping had even started. Then called me personally to make sure I was happy with how everything was being taken care of.

I am used to dealing with big NYC discount houses - camera equipment for example, but I have never been more pleased. What could have easily turned into a customer service nightmare has been handled with care and finesse.

- A very content LP customer