LeisurePro now an Oceanic Authorized Dealer?

[mike_s]

Yes, if everyone was on a level playing field, it would be better. We can sell for any price - give away a computer for a buck if we want... just can't advertise it.

Can you provide the link for where we can purchase that? it didn't easily come up on the ScubaToys website...

 

[Teamcasa]

Its exhausting to be a retailer. Manufacturers and distributors have to learn that some products are inevitably destine for on-line success. Books, music and movies are the first to virtually to leave a brick and mortar retailer with little choice but to re-open as a Starbucks. Most high cost, low shipping weight electronics shops will also be selling coffee very soon. Products that require hands on display or fit will still prosper in fixed locations – for a while.

Scuba gear – it will ALL be sold on-line eventually. The only thing that will keep a local dive shop open will be classes, gear rentals, air fills, tank and regulator service and initial gear sales. Custom shops will always have their niche markets.

The modern consumer will spend more time on-line researching products and pricing than ever before. They know what they want, how much to pay and what is or is not a good deal. For a local LDS to remain competitive, they must have stock on-hand and be ready to deliver the chosen product instantly for a price the consumer believes is competitive.

As for companies like Oceanic, success will be based on their reputation for quality and fast and polite customer service. It won’t matter if they deliver their products to LeisurePro, ScubaToys or Scuba.com as long as they give all of them consistent and fair wholesale pricing, quick and reliable service.

For us, the consumer, all we want is a great price, and next-day service if we can’t get it at the local dive shop. We really don’t care about the warranties in general. For most of our gear, the warranty is useless, however, we want a great warranty on regulators, computers and other high cost items. Most people like to stick with a brand they trust. We will pay higher prices for this but it has its limits. ScubaPro will go the way of the dodo is it continues its adversarial relationship with its dealers. Their products are not “that” good.

Bottom line is, I applaud Oceanic for its decision to make its products available through internet retailers as long as the remain consistent and fair to all comers, keep customer service at the highest level and good consumer communication lines wide open.

Dave

 

[PhilEllis]

When a product is being discountinued, they drop the MAP pricing....They sell of the remaining stock, sometimes at a discount.....and the dealer can do what ever they want with pricing....Alot of times the pricing will come down a bit, but the dealer still has the normal price in it. We dont have to just sell things off, I do a pretty good job, so far , of keeping inventory levels right where the demand is, so we dont usually get stuck with alot of inventory when a product is discontinued. However, some bigger places, will have overstock, and thus another way LP got some of their stuff....Gotta love the gray marketers...they buy in bulk get bigger discount, then just sell to LP and make money.....Funny they dont really chime in here or on any other threads:no

These so-called "grey marketers" don't chime in here because that isn't how it works. At the volume LP sells, it is impossible for them to get the merchandise from dealers who are "over stocked". There is not usually enough currency float to allow them to get the merchandise from Europe economically. If you just use your head and think a little in practical terms, it will become CLEAR "how it works". This is an old game...and I am not talking about any particular scuba company........and the rules haven't changed since day one.

Phil Ellis

 

[redacted]

Is there a price below which gear isn't allowed to be sold? I purchased a VT3 from one of the two LDS I frequent, and got a price that is somewhat below the MAP. I was chatting with one of the owners of the second dive shop, and the topic of it came up. He asked what I paid for it, and when he found out he said that he "wasn't allowed to sell it that low" and implied that the other shop shouldn't have been able to either. I asked if he meant he wasn't allowed to advertise it that low, and that wasn't what he meant...

It is my understanding the a number of mfgrs (Scubapro for one) have discount limitations in their dealer agreements and manufacturers may stop supplying a dealer that fails to abide by those limitations. Of course, LDSs have numerous ways of working around those limitations so they should never be an impass to a good deal.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

These so-called "grey marketers" don't chime in here because that isn't how it works. At the volume LP sells, it is impossible for them to get the merchandise from dealers who are "over stocked". There is not usually enough currency float to allow them to get the merchandise from Europe economically. If you just use your head and think a little in practical terms, it will become CLEAR "how it works". This is an old game...and I am not talking about any particular scuba company........and the rules haven't changed since day one.

Phil Ellis

I agree to an extent....there is however a "store" in California that is a front for LP and alot of the things they buy go straight to LP. There are also bigger retailers that contribute to buying in bulk, due to their current online selling capabilites, and unloading half of what they bring in to LP. Its not just going from the Manu. to LP....sometimes yes, but alot of times, NO.......

Take Pinnacle for example....no LP presence until they brought in a certain retailer....as soon as they brought that retailer in, LP "somehow" started getting Pinnacle products......

Im not talking about Europe, these companies are here, not overseas Phil

 

[PhilEllis]

Yes, if everyone was on a level playing field, it would be better. We can sell for any price - give away a computer for a buck if we want... just can't advertise it.

As far as if this will hurt oceanic as other brands will be cheaper gray market, that is also the reason that we no longer carry ScubaPro... they would enforce pricing on us, but let friends of management bootleg to gray market outlets in huge quantity. I believe (without tying to speak for him) that is why you saw a lot of posts on shops dropping aqua lung.

In the long run, the support of products has to be through dive shops and authorized dealers, and if the manufacturers don't have policies that address the gray market - legit shops will simply turn to other brands.

I agree with Joe. In the long run, authorized dealers (either brick and mortar or online) is necessary for the long term success of scuba manufacturers. The long term success of authorized dealers is based upon absolutely unbridled ability to do as they see fit for their business model, area, clientle, and needs. This means elimination of the silly "price-support" rules. In the first place, it is IMPOSSIBLE to fairly enforce minimum retail price policies.

As you all might remember, I was terminated as a dealer by one large scuba manufacturer for violating the minimum retail price rule. This is painful, especially since I had recently seen an 8x10 photograph of a tent sale in California, with about 4 smiling executives from said scuba company and the owner of the dealer operation running the tent sale, standing in front of the tent with a gigantic banner that said "everything under this tent discounted 25% to 60%"! What do you think the tent was full of? You guessed it! What a joke.

Phil Ellis

 

[Teamcasa]

This is an old game...and I am not talking about any particular scuba company........and the rules haven't changed since day one.
Phil Ellis

Wrong.
The rules have and will continue to change as technology improves. Consumers are getting more internet savy and generally know what it and what is not a good deal. The only rule that has not changed is customer service, without it, you are finished.

It is my understanding the a number of mfgrs (Scubapro for one) have discount limitations in their dealer agreements and manufacturers may stop supplying a dealer that fails to abide by those limitations. Of course, LDSs have numerous ways of working around those limitations so they should never be an impass to a good deal.

Minimum Advertised Price is only enforceable by the dealer agreement.
No manufacturer in the US and set or force the actual SELLING price. It’s a violation of federal price fixing laws. They can only mandate (via their dealer agreement) that the retailer not advertise a lower price or discount. Retailers can, and do sell for less than MAP. Small retailers have little influence in corporate policies unless they get together and agree that unless a manufacturer backs off on the MAP rules, they will drop them. However they too can not discuss pricing specifically or they violate federal law. It’s a certainty that they will not do that and as such, are destine to sell more coffee than dive gear.

Companies like LP will continue to be aggressive in their buying practice so they can survive this ever changing market.


Dave

 

[mike_s]

As you all might remember, I was terminated as a dealer by one large scuba manufacturer for violating the minimum retail price rule. This is painful, especially since I had recently seen an 8x10 photograph of a tent sale in California, with about 4 smiling executives from said scuba company and the owner of the dealer operation running the tent sale, standing in front of the tent with a gigantic banner that said "everything under this tent discounted 25% to 60%"! What do you think the tent was full of? You guessed it! What a joke.

Phil Ellis

Oh you should so post that pic on here...

what a joke is right.

 

[PhilEllis]

Wrong.
The rules have and will continue to change as technology improves. Consumers are getting more internet savy and generally know what it and what is not a good deal. The only rule that has not changed is customer service, without it, you are finished.


The "rules" I was speaking of pertain to where LP and other gray market sources get their material. That is unchanged in the past 20 years.



Minimum Advertised Price is only enforceable by the dealer agreement.
No manufacturer in the US and set or force the actual SELLING price. It’s a violation of federal price fixing laws. They can only mandate (via their dealer agreement) that the retailer not advertise a lower price or discount. Retailers can, and do sell for less than MAP. Small retailers have little influence in corporate policies unless they get together and agree that unless a manufacturer backs off on the MAP rules, they will drop them. However they too can not discuss pricing specifically or they violate federal law. It’s a certainty that they will not do that and as such, are destine to sell more coffee than dive gear.

Companies like LP will continue to be aggressive in their buying practice so they can survive this ever changing market.

Dave

Actually, the Supreme Court in the famous "colgate" (this ruling is the basis for the so-called "colgate rights" that all manufacturers who exercise price controls proudly trumpet) case says the manufacturer CAN establish a minimum retail price, providing they do so as a "unilateral" business policy and fairly terminate dealers who violate the policy. What they CANNOT do is enter into an AGREEMENT with the dealer to regulate the actual price. Important Note: Oral arguments will be heard by the Supreme Court on Leegin v PSKS on March 26 of this year. The question before the Court is .........."will minimum retail price agreements continue to be per se illegal or should each instance be judged by the increasingly popular "rule of reason" established by the court." I will make a different post on this issue later today if time permits.

Phil Ellis

 

[Teamcasa]

...What they CANNOT do is enter into an AGREEMENT with the dealer to regulate the actual price. Important Note: Oral arguments will be heard by the Supreme Court on Leegin v PSKS on March 26 of this year. The question before the Court is .........."will minimum retail price agreements continue to be per se illegal or should each instance be judged by the increasingly popular "rule of reason" established by the court." I will make a different post on this issue later today if time permits.

Phil Ellis

Leegin will win. I think. It will have little effect on the consumer in general but it will help the small specialized manufacturers get a foothold in a tough market. Also, if Leegin wins, it will benefit the small boutique shops but will be little help for the large mass-market type products. But who knows – we shall wait and see.

Dave