LDS Disillusionment

[fashionablylate]

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with this. Its a bit more than being friendly. If a person wants to buy equipment from the LDS where I'm an AI, it will generally take several hours to run through the options, answer questions and make sure that we are meeting their needs. The upside is that we almost never have issues with returns and, if someone is not happy, we have a 100 day store credit return policy. We also don't do this during classes. We tell people up front the approximate total cost of the course and the personal equipment that they will need and how much it will cost for a decent recreational rig.

One the equipment arrives, we set it up and fit it to them (we sell primarily Halcyon BP's, so fitting is helpful, particularly for new divers). If a problem arises, someone generally has a piece of equipment available for loan until the problem is solved. We don't charge for this. We also encourage people to come out and dive. We organize local trips, charters, etc... That should be worth something.

If someone comes in off the street with stuff they bought on the Internet, we charge an hourly rate for setup. We also charge for repairs and don't loan equipment, although rentals may be available.

If someone comes into the shop, takes our time to help them pick out and size gear, then shows up with stuff they bought off the net, we politely show them the door and suggest that they have it setup by the person who sold it to them. We also suggest that they get their airfills from the same place that they bought their gear and arrange for dive buddies and training through the website. We don't need people who waste our time, then screw us over.

I agree with you, which is why I wanted to make the point that I do currently support my LDS, and am not looking back with regret. Really, I'm questioning my own sense of economy. (Most divers seem to be really bad at economics, apparently.) The issue for me is not the money already spent, but what I will be spending in the immediate future, given what I have already discovered about the nature of the LDS. For example, I already know that by November of this year, I will be picking up a Viking drysuit, a Poseidon Odin with octo, and an OMS backplate and wings. If I buy these items elsewhere at a real savings, it will probably piss off the LDS. If I buy from the LDS, I know that I am going to throw at least another thousand dollars away.
In terms of customer loyalty and the shop owner's sentiment toward their customers...should I expect my shop owner to treat me the same, since I've already spent a small fortune at the LDS, or should I expect that, unless I continue to give them ALL of my business, that the cold shoulder is somewhere in the offing?
I guess what I'm trying to establish is...when to say when with high prices when there are alternatives available. I hate to shop on the basis of price, but I also hate to be stupid about how I spend my money.
-Andrew

 

[waterwraith]

I agree with you, which is why I wanted to make the point that I do currently support my LDS, and am not looking back with regret. Really, I'm questioning my own sense of economy. (Most divers seem to be really bad at economics, apparently.) The issue for me is not the money already spent, but what I will be spending in the immediate future, given what I have already discovered about the nature of the LDS. For example, I already know that by November of this year, I will be picking up a Viking drysuit, a Poseidon Odin with octo, and an OMS backplate and wings. If I buy these items elsewhere at a real savings, it will probably piss off the LDS. If I buy from the LDS, I know that I am going to throw at least another thousand dollars away.
In terms of customer loyalty and the shop owner's sentiment toward their customers...should I expect my shop owner to treat me the same, since I've already spent a small fortune at the LDS, or should I expect that, unless I continue to give them ALL of my business, that the cold shoulder is somewhere in the offing?
I guess what I'm trying to establish is...when to say when with high prices when there are alternatives available. I hate to shop on the basis of price, but I also hate to be stupid about how I spend my money.
-Andrew

You stated earlier that you paid $1000.00 more than the on-line price. Although I know what gear you bought that sounds a little extreme. All dive shops I have ever dealt with give discounts when people buy a package. My LDS quoted a price for a full dive package that was just $200.00 more than Leisurepro and for lifetime warranties on all my gear I felt the extra 200 was worth it. Two other dive shops around me quoted only 400 more than an on-line price.

If I were you I would approach my LDS about purchasing the new suit, Regs, BP/wings, etc, and ask for a price. Also ask if there is any chance of getting a discount for buying a large amount of gear. If the rate they quote is drastically more than the on-line price ask them if they would be willing to match or come close to the on-line price. If the get belligerent or refuse then it may be time to look for another LDS. I am all for supporting the LDS but a business man that is not willing to be a little flexible is a business man who will not be in business long.

 

[ScubaMarc]

I agree 1000 is excessive but how long did you talk to the salesperson? How much advise did you get? A lot of people talk to a LDS, then go home to buy it online. This is also not fair to the LDS. If they gave you some help, buy the most servicable items at the lds and the self repairable items through the net.

This has happened to me: An hour before a dive I found a bladder washer was torn on my bc. I went to the shop and he replaced it for free. Do that with Microsoft Internet Explorer .

 

[Northeastwrecks]

All very reasonable until the last paragraph. Overhead for service and air are mostly sunk costs. So you are sending almost pure profit packing. Doesn't sound like the smartest business model to me. Then again, with the things you are doing right you should be fine .... until somebody better moves in.

Perhaps it isn't. However, we've also found that these people are simply not worth dealing with. More often than not, they are constantly trying to nickle and dime, i.e., looking for discounts on air fills ($4.00 for air, $10.00 for nitrox, regardless of tank size, isn't a bad deal), expecting discounts on classes and, in one memorable instance, complaining constantly about trip accommodations even though they selected the cheapest off the area hotels (one that wasn't on our list).

I should add that we have no problem working with people who have bought their equipment elsewhere. Yesterday, I spent about 45 minutes (15 of them after the shop closed) talking and demonstrating gear to someone who announced that they were shopping around. We do prefer that they start buying from us if they are going to expect the benefits we provide to our regular customers. However, we don't expect someone to dump their existing gear (unless its a HUB, but that's another story, LOL).

Our issue is with someone who comes in, has us spec out an entire rig, tries on gear, then shows up three weeks later with the same gear that we spec'd out, expecting us to set it up. I've also found that these people often whine about paying the setup fees.

I maintain a private practice and am an adjunct professor at UConn Law. I've got a family. That leaves a finite amount of time to devote to helping out around the LDS. We've got manufacturer's reps and our certifying agency calling the owner to ask how come we are moving so much equipment and why our retention rates for students remain consistently higher than average. Personally, I'd rather spend my time helping the people who contribute to those statistics.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

The bottom line is that most business models indicate that what is being sold with a product is both price AND service.

The internet has changed business models in many industries, to include automobiles, clothing, personal electronics and computers, tools, and dive equipment.

Its still a balance of purchasing products based on price and service. The internet provides all price, no service. To the extent that products you purchase require service, annual (regulators, tanks) or periodic (drysuit seals), you'd better consider service in your procurement decision. You won't get it off the internet.

If the product requires little in the way of post-acqusition service (e.g. reels, lift bags, flashlights, fins, etc.), your procurement decision may be less influenced by service.

Its always going to be a balance of the two. As has often been stated, a relationship with a dive shop can be profitable for both parties. Scuba is often a service-oriented activity. You'll need items serviced regularly, and having a good relationship with a shop can be helpful. The other side is that there will be times when the shop owner cannot afford to stock all the items you'll need, and for which service may not be as important. (When was the last time you had your fins serviced?) Some things can be more economically purchased on the internet.

Shop owners are already contending with both hard economic times and new business models. It is in diver's interests to ensure that the shops can survive. It is in the shop's interest to consider carefully the choices that divers must make.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

(When was the last time you had your fins serviced?)

I never have. However, I've fit at least 6 sets of fins with spring straps in the past few months. One of those, a set of Mares Volos, required me to take the fins home and grind the post a bit with a Dremel (sp?) to remove a tab in order to fit the metal strap holder over the post (I knew that this would work because I did the same thing to my wife's fins last year).

The Volos didn't come from my LDS. The spring straps did. I didn't charge for my time because the straps came from the LDS.

 

[SDAnderson]

All businesses evaluate and manage their employees – the good ones get raises, the bad ones get fired. Smart businesses manage their customers, too. As with employees, the good ones should expect to get deals and the bad ones should expect to get fired.

Northeastwrecks has hit it on the head. The business model for dives shops is changing, for better or worse. The owner of the dive shop is almost always in it as a labor of love, but he has to be a practical businessman if he wants to stay in business. For every "I'm not getting my money's worth from my LDS" story posted by disgruntled customers there is a corollary "I'm not getting my money's worth from my customers" story that the dive shop could post.

Customer service is what the dive shops have to offer over the internet shops - but customer service is an investment that has to pay off and needs to be carefully monitored. There are too many folks who stop by the local dive shop and spend a couple of hours trying on gear and gathering information and then make their purchases from a source that can offer cheaper prices because they don’t offer much in the way of customer service. The dive shops have to learn how to turn these non-paying consumers into productive customers or they have to cut their losses and avoid doing any work for them.

Dive shops are learning that these folks often come back, the smart shops won’t get huffy and kick them out but will try to salvage a relationship. They will treat the non-customer politely and with respect, but they will also carefully control the situation. Try this model on for size - it seems to be where things are headed:

• If an internet buyer wants sales help, they will explain to him that his price sensitivity means that their normal business model won’t work and that they won’t be able to help him unless he’s willing to pay an hourly consultation fee.
  
• If an internet buyer wants service help, they will charge him a bench fee to “just take a quick look” at his malfunctioning whatever and he will get an estimate of the cost for the time and materials to make the necessary repairs.
  
• In the meantime, we should all expect to start paying more for fills and training, as those services are currently underwritten to some extent by anticipated equipment sales.

I’m a strong supporter of internet purchases, but not at the expense of my local dive shops. I value the advice I get from a couple of my locals and make sure that I buy from them to compensate them for the time they invest in educating me.

 

[fmw625]

I bought my snorkle, mask and fins from my LDS because I did not know of any where else to get them at the time. Glad I did though. When the mask leaked they fitted me with a comprable mask and took th old one back. No charge. I bought my reg., BCD, octo. and wetsuit from my LDS. Lifetime warenty, they have the parts to service and no service charge fee, even though they were used when I bought them.

I dive with my LDS owner, my instructor(s), my fellow students, and students from previous and past classes taught by my LDS. The LDS sponsers dives every weekend and everyone is welcome.

I feel that my LDS owner and all the people that hang around the LDS are great.

BTW the used price I paid was about 70% of new price on internet.

 

[Janko]

Reefraff,

I agree with what you said for the most part. However, one thing I think is worth mentioning is that the "commercial benevolence" that establishes a good rapport between a new customer and a business has to be intiated by the business for two reasons, especially in diving: first, because a new diver is a wide-eyed sheep immersed in a pack of wolves (the dive industry); and secondly, because this is a fundamental principle of good business. If you want the customer to come back, YOU have to go out of your way to cut them all the slack they require, thus giving them a reason to shop with you.

Often the LDS doesn't adhere to this at first contact with a new diver/customer, as it appears was the case with Fashionablylate and was certainly the case with me.

Though certainly not all shops are run this way, if the LDS gouges you at first, I see no reason not to go out of your way to screw them in the future.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

If the LDS gouges you at first, I see no reason not to go out of your way to screw them in the future.

I am curious why you believe that you were taken advantage of by the LDS and why you allowed it to happen. $250.00 AUD doesn't sound particularly out of line mask, snorkel and fins, depending on the models.

In addition, how did you come to the conclusion that the gear is crappy.