LDS Disillusionment

[Janko]

I am curious why you believe that you were taken advantage of by the LDS and why you allowed it to happen. $250.00 AUD doesn't sound particularly out of line mask, snorkel and fins, depending on the models.

In addition, how did you come to the conclusion that the gear is crappy.

I got a mask, fins and snorkel that were ridiculously overpriced, and were pooly fitting. ($370 AUD was for the open water course itself, I paid over 250 for the gear on top of that.) I had to buy a new mask after a few dives because I couldn't dive with the one that fit me best at this particular shop - painful around the nose. And it wasn't so much the price of the gear that made me angry, but the fact I was conned into buying it because I had already paid for the course and invested my time in it. A new diver doesn't know good fit from bad fit and depends on the seller for honesty, which I didn't get.

None of this gear purchasing was mentioned while I was putting the cash for the course on the counter. I would have done research on what to buy and probably would have bought it beforehand had I known I was going to have to buy this gear. Just a pure scam. I guarantee that if the 'equipment purchase' was the first thing of the day, I would have walked out.

Like I said before, the good people in the industry, and their reputations, are victims of their own sleazy comrades. That's life, I guess. And for the record, I don't have issues with dive shops per se - as soon as this course was over, I dropped two grand at an honest shop for all my new gear, not one thing came from the internet.

 

[fashionablylate]

• In the meantime, we should all expect to start paying more for fills and training, as those services are currently underwritten to some extent by anticipated equipment sales.

I’m a strong supporter of internet purchases, but not at the expense of my local dive shops. I value the advice I get from a couple of my locals and make sure that I buy from them to compensate them for the time they invest in educating me.

This, I agree with completely, and said as much to the shop owner. When he quoted me the price for the open water certification, I thought it seemed really cheap, and then when I realized how much time the instructors spend with each student, I knew that my $250 for the course sure wasn't paying for anyone's time in the pool with me. Even if they were getting only 10 dollars an hour, I'd still be coming out way ahead on that deal. I said to the owner, "In no way does the course fee pay for your instructor time investment."
His response: "Most people don't realize that, and I'm glad you appreciate it."
I guessed that the dive shop makes its money on equipment -- by getting people interested in the activity of scuba, and then selling them more as their technical needs increase. I have no problem with this, and I have a great relationship with the shop and its employees. I simply don't want that relationship to change if I can find a Poseidon Odin for $400 as opposed to the $625 the shop is charging.
-Andrew

 

[Northeastwrecks]

I got a mask, fins and snorkel that were ridiculously overpriced, and were pooly fitting. ($370 AUD was for the open water course itself, I paid over 250 for the gear on top of that.) I had to buy a new mask after a few dives because I couldn't dive with the one that fit me best at this particular shop - painful around the nose. And it wasn't so much the price of the gear that made me angry, but the fact I was conned into buying it because I had already paid for the course and invested my time in it. A new diver doesn't know good fit from bad fit and depends on the seller for honesty, which I didn't get.

I certainly can't disagree that masks shouldn't hurt. Its too bad that you were on vacation (I'm assuming that because you are from Toronto and purchased in Australian dollars) and couldn't take it back.

I also don't disagree that the shop should have told you about the gear costs before you signed up. That's slimey.

When someone (customer or not) asks me how much it costs to dive, I tell them that they should plan on spending about $500 - $600 for the group course and the personal gear (mask, snorkel, fins, booties and hood). They can plan on another $1500.00 - $3000.00 if they want their own ggear, depending on their personal choices.

Scuba is not a cheap activity. I'd rather be up front and tell people that than deal with people who have half the gear they need and who can't afford the rest. That leaves no one happy.

Andrew - it never hurts to ask what they can do for you. We can usually offer 10% off. With drysuits, we'll throw in the course. Masks come with a complimentary bottle of sea buff and sea drops. Sometimes other things can be done.

Your reg will need to be set up. Don't let anyone convince you that its magic or that it is particularly difficult. However, it does require tools that you probably don't have, along with basic mechanical skills. It also doesn't hurt to have done it before a few times. So be sure to take that into consideration when you factor in the cost.

Good luck

 

[ScubaNorth]

I have used both with good results. My LDS has no selection and the Manager has a real attitude problem, but the rest of his staff are excellent. For my regualr purchases I go local for the higher cost purchases I use LP. The whole buy here service here is out for my LDS. I brought my reg is for an overhaul and the Manager looked down his nose at it and said I don't have the parts and I doubt you'll find them. When I informed him I bought it at his shop he said yeah maybe 9 years ago and turned on his heals. I went to the next closest shop and they took care of my service and earned my future business. The reg is an Omega II which is still very much in production and parts are plentiful. I want to give my LDS the business and don't even mind spending a bit more but they have to stop treating customers like an interuption.

 

[Whitelightnin]

Fellas (and Gals), there are people out there running dive shops who wouldn't know what customer appreciation is if it hit them on the head. However, there are thousands of other types of bussinesses with those same type people running them.

There are dive stores out there being run by people who truly know how to "earn" a customer's loyalty just as in every other type of bussiness.

These people are the ones that build customers so loyal that everyone around them has to watch what they say less they somehow "slight" the dive store & wind up with a readjusted head. I have personally had to pull a loyal customer into the back of the shop just to keep him from beating the crap out of someone who insulted my shop. He didn't insult me, just said something about my shop & nearly didn't make it out of there walking upright.

No, I wouldn't "show someone the door" for wasting my time showing them everything they needed & then having them buy it somewhere else. At the same time, that person has no right to expect me to loan them a regulator (or anything else) while I work on theirs. They can expect to RENT one.

If I have a regular who needs something worked on "NOW!!!", he gets it worked on "NOW!!!". If he has a tank that needs hydroed, he gets a FREE loaner until his gets back. If he needs ANYTHING, he gets it if I can find a way to do it.
If he needs a new piece of gear, he doesn't pay "sugested retail" for it. He gets it at a good discount. Maybe not as low as he could buy it online, but close enough that he GLADLY buys it from me. He understands that I have to make a living & that I won't try to "make it ALL off of him".

You can't "buy" customers like that, they have to be earned & they can be if you treat them right & show them that you truly appreciate them & respect that they have a choice as to where they spend their money.


James

 

[fashionablylate]

Fellas (and Gals), there are people out there running dive shops who wouldn't know what customer appreciation is if it hit them on the head. However, there are thousands of other types of bussinesses with those same type people running them.

There are dive stores out there being run by people who truly know how to "earn" a customer's loyalty just as in every other type of bussiness.

These people are the ones that build customers so loyal that everyone around them has to watch what they say less they somehow "slight" the dive store & wind up with a readjusted head. I have personally had to pull a loyal customer into the back of the shop just to keep him from beating the crap out of someone who insulted my shop. He didn't insult me, just said something about my shop & nearly didn't make it out of there walking upright.

No, I wouldn't "show someone the door" for wasting my time showing them everything they needed & then having them buy it somewhere else. At the same time, that person has no right to expect me to loan them a regulator (or anything else) while I work on theirs. They can expect to RENT one.

If I have a regular who needs something worked on "NOW!!!", he gets it worked on "NOW!!!". If he has a tank that needs hydroed, he gets a FREE loaner until his gets back. If he needs ANYTHING, he gets it if I can find a way to do it.
If he needs a new piece of gear, he doesn't pay "sugested retail" for it. He gets it at a good discount. Maybe not as low as he could buy it online, but close enough that he GLADLY buys it from me. He understands that I have to make a living & that I won't try to "make it ALL off of him".

You can't "buy" customers like that, they have to be earned & they can be if you treat them right & show them that you truly appreciate them & respect that they have a choice as to where they spend their money.


James

James,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am particularly intersted in hearing from shop owners like yourself, as this topic certainly applies to both the consumer and the business owner. You bring to light an interesting point.
I purchased a Versa Pro from my dive shop, and the sensors went wacky on it within a week of dives. (It was registering 219 feet...in the dive shop!) They sent it back to Oceanic for repair, and gave me a Pro Plus as a loaner until mine comes back from service.
Now, I would expect them to do something for me, since I purchased the unit from them and it failed within a week, which I presume is abnormal. However, the loaner they gave me was air-integrated, and has a wider display than my original unit -- so now I want a Pro Plus, too!
Never let it be said that dive shop owners are not clever marketers.
-Andrew

 

[Scuba-Bill]

New to the diving community, I purchased all of my equipment from the LDS after they advised me that it wasn't "safe" to buy equipment from the Internet. Now a month later, I learned about LP, and it didn't take long to discover that I would have saved over 1000 dollars had I purchased from LP instead of the LDS.
I fully appreciate the sentiment about supporting the LDS, but when the disparity is that great...I have to wonder what I'm "getting" in return for supporting the LDS, apart from a hole in my wallet.
Someone convince me that I'm doing the right thing by continuing to support the LDS, please, so I can stop kicking myself for spending substantially more than I needed to.

I purchase both from LP and my LDS (ScubaToys). BCD, computer, and anything else that I feel a warranty is of value on I purchase from ScubaToys, otherwise if the price is better, shipping included, I will purchase from LP. LP has an interesting attitute towards customers, I think they want us, but not really sure yet... ;-)

The guys are ScubaToys are great to work with -- there is alot of knowledge in that shop and other LDS. Go in, talk with them or give them a call. Remember the LDS' use the equipment and know diving. Not so sure about LP.

The bottom line is to have fun, learn, and be SAFE. You will need to decide where that balance lies for you and your money.

Scuba-Bill (Two cents lighter)

 

[TCDiver1]

No, I wouldn't "show someone the door" for wasting my time showing them everything they needed & then having them buy it somewhere else. At the same time, that person has no right to expect me to loan them a regulator (or anything else) while I work on theirs. They can expect to RENT one.
James

Not sure thats the same thing Northeastwrecks is talking about. It takes a pretty big pair to go into a LDS, try everything out for size and function, not tell them up front you have no intention of buying from them, and then go back to the same LDS and ask for help setting it up after you purchased everything online. Pretty cheezy IMO!

If one feels strongly that this should be okay with an LDS then one should have no problem being honest with them. Telling them you are considering online purchases and let the LDS decide if they want to deal with you or not. That is the right thing to do IMO.

I support LDS and online purchases. I think they both have their place in a healthy dive industry. But using a LDS is no different than them using you. Calling it what it is, both are underhanded practices.

 

[MikeFerrara]

No, I wouldn't "show someone the door" for wasting my time showing them everything they needed & then having them buy it somewhere else. At the same time, that person has no right to expect me to loan them a regulator (or anything else) while I work on theirs. They can expect to RENT one.

LOL. Brings back bad memories. I saw a lot of that when I had a shop. I had one student who baught his mask and fins on-line but they didn't show up in time for class. He showed up for the first pool session with no gear and raised a big stink in front of all the other students because I charged him money to let him use mine. He's bad mouthing me arount town to this very day.

I had another guy literally spend an entire Saturday picking my brain about equipment. I kid you not, he took up my whole day. He baught what I recommended but he got it someplace else. Of course then he needed help with it but didn't feel that I should charge for it.

I would have done better selling the gear at cost and just charging by the hour for my time.

 

[outlawaggie]

I agree that what's done is done and you should look forward. However, sorry guys, I'm going against the grain here. No amount of hugs and kisses from my LDS is worth $1000 of my bucks.

Amen, Janko.

This arguement is like argueing politics. Most people have an opinion and aren't changing. My opinion is simple. I just bought two complete set ups (Reg, computers, octo, BC) from ScubaToys. Compared to my LDS I saved over $945 plus tax. I love my LDS, I just bought a tank there and signed up for a trip to the Flower Gardensbut like Janko said no amount of "support your LDS" is worth a THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Bottom line is you have to come to your own decision as to what is "support" and what is stupidity. For me its 5% plus tax.