Just a question??

[MrBlue]

Now everyone is going to start arguing about how much more they are DIR than the other?

It's bad enough that there are the endless fights between the DIR bunch and the anti DIR bunch, but this is just ridiculous.

debate, discussion and even the occasional 'polite' argument is a way to learn and re-learn. But where this thread has gone is just pointless.

You know, people say the reason they hate DIR/GUE is the attitude of the 'people' that support DIR/GUE. 90% of those people have never met a GUE trained diver in person and have only encountered the DIR movement in chatrooms and forums.

From what I've seen across the internet and on this thread I'd not only be anti DIR, I'd be embarrassed to be considered DIR and in company of some of these internet cowboys.

Luckily I've seen the 'real' side of what DIR is and have gotten to personally know some GUE students and instructors. Every one of these people I've met and talked with are genuine, caring, reasonable people. They don't berate or belittle, they try to share their knowledge and experience. They take thier own time and many times spend their own money to help 'spread' the word. And, they don't beat their chests about how great of divers they are.....but they are the real thing.

My question is simple. Why can't 'we' (the internet proponents of DIR and GUE) be more like those that brought us to DIR/GUE? Those real human beings that actually taught us and showed us during our GUE courses?

It's no wonder why so many real DIR types don't bother with the forums. It seems like 95% of the pro DIR posters have never taken a DIR course let alone a GUE Tech or Cave course. 80% of the posters have either read JJ's book, or took a fundy's class and now consider themselves DIR-masters capable of telling everyone how it's done and how it should be done. No wonder people take snipes at them, and don't take them seriously.

It's great to be passionate about something and to want to share. But take a look at how you present it and think twice about whether you should present it or not. There's alot of great stuff to be shared here and learned from, but it's oh so easy to muddy up the waters with mis-information and general crap.

my apologies for the rant.

--MB

 

[SeaJay]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Another problem is when divers with little actual experience preach what they have heard but not done.

Agreed. That's why I said:

SeaJay once bubbled...
Let's assign some numbers to your rig so as to illustrate the way this would happen. These are common numbers that I personally have experienced:

But first made it clear that:

SeaJay once bubbled...
The situation, as best as I can tell from reading this thread, was this:

Salt water, open ocean dive
AL80 doubles rig
Backplate and harness
3 mm wetsuit
Properly weighted and trimmed for the dive

So unless you're willing to read the whole message, Mike, I suggest shoving it up your a**.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
How many classes? You've gotten in alot of practice in the last few weeks huh?

Yeah, something like 91 practice dives in the past 10 weeks. How many dives do you have in the past few months? What's it to you, anyway? I specifically said:

SeaJay once bubbled...
Okay, I'm only newly DIR, but I think I can answer your question.

So take a long walk off a short pier, Mike.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
This is the tech section right? Have you ever attempted to manage a set of 104's and dry suit without your wing? Comming out of a cave? While doing some deco?

You're clouding the issue. Those things have nothing to do with this conversation. This is because Faye explained his rig to us when he said:

Faye once bubbled...
Well I am trying to look at bouyancy and how the system deals with this issue, and my situation.
I am diving twin al80
I am diving in a 3 mil, Very little change in boyancy.
Tanks add 6lbs when full
they lessen 6lbs when empty
I need to add six lbs of weight for the end of the dive
I cruise down at the beggining of the dive 12lbs neg.

I felt that it was appropriate to answer since I have some experience with this particular sort of rig. Is that okay with you? I would not have answered if the question pertained to "managing a set of 104's and dry suit without my wing while coming out of a cave," since I have no experience with that one.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
BTW in regard to your al tank buoyancy calculations...my al tanks are closer to 4 pounds neg when full and 2 pound pos empty.

Well, then you aren't diving a Luxfer S080 like I am (probably the best-selling and most commonly used AL tank in the world). Perhaps you aren't diving in salt water either... The characterisitics change by about a pound in fresh water. If you'd like the statistics on tanks, I've got them on my website... Check my signature and then go to that site. Then Talk/Equipment/Tank Specifications. Remember that these numbers are in salt water, and that they change a little for fresh. 'Course, that's pointless informaiton, since we've already established that we're talking salt water here.

Besides, I also included the following, to cover those people who's numbers came out differently in case they had different tanks or whatever:

SeaJay once bubbled...
The same math above can be applied no matter what your circumstance.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
you also left out regs, manifold, bands, can light and all the other gear often used on a technical dive. And no we don't ditch the can light in a cave.

Faye didn't mention those things in the question that I was answering, so I chose to leave them out too, in the interest of simplicity. I also didn't include the stages that one might carry when doing deco, etc... Again, that's only clouding the issue, since the original question didn't include them.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Putting together a balanced recreational rig is trivial. Tech rigs usually end up very heavy with full tanks.

Who cares? That wasn't the question. Perhaps you should reread the thread before jumping all over my sh*t, Mike.

Better yet, I have a suggestion: Stop jumping all over my sh*t period, Mike. It only makes you look like a loser. As my S.O. says, "That's two cents too much."

 

[SeaJay]

MrBlue once bubbled...
Now everyone is going to start arguing about how much more they are DIR than the other?

Of course not. The original question, which is what I answered, was posed to "those people who are DIR."

My suggestion, then, is to ignore all of those who are NOT DIR when it comes to getting your answer. What, exactly, makes someone DIR?

Well... The books spell it out specifically, so if you have THAT question, I suggest that you look it up and get that information from the source.

MikeFerrara? Don't listen to his spout... He's never been DIR trained.

I am a DIR newbie, but at least I've been trained.

As I said in my post that answered your question, faye, my suggestion is to get the information specifically from GUE instructors, since they're much better at this than I am, and much more qualified. In the meantime, I do know the answer to your question, and so I've shared.

MikeFerrara, on the other hand, has stepped on himself. He shouldn't be opening his mouth at all here, since he's not a DIR diver, and the question was posed specifically to DIR divers.

 

[JamieZ]

I must be a looser too because I read your post the same way Mike did. I'm actually surprised you didnt use the word "stroke". I think your post is way out of line, Mike didn't call you any names.

Personally I think that your taking this way overboard. You need to relax a little.

He's right about your post, you come across like you've taken numerous classes from GUE and that you know everything there is about diving because you took a DIRF class and you've read the books and talked with a few big wigs from GUE.

Try to tone it down a notch. Were all happy you have all these new great things in your life but honestly you sound like GUE is the Gospel. Its not. Their idea's are great but so are allot of others.

I'm not talking just about you when I state this but this board is getting brutal. I think I have contributed to this at times and its a shame. I read more and more posts every day from people that have a Halcyon wing and plate or they've taken a DIRF class and all of sudden they think their gods in the water and everyone elses idea's suck. Then go in to preaching about stuff they have read but have never experienced because the only thing they've done with that backplate and that Halcyon wing and their DIRF class is weenie dives. Stop preaching so much and just offer advice. I believe you truly would like to have people see the light of things that you have experienced and at the same time sway them towards your side of thinking but just remember there is always another person on this board that has more experience then you or the people your getting your info from they just tend to prefer to stay out of the lime light.

By the way Mike might not have been trained by GUE but I bet he's been trained by the people who started Hogarthian which GUE adopted. I dont think Chickdiver has ever taken a GUE course but I betcha she could teach you a thing or 2 about doing it right.



This whole DIR, Anti-DIR thing is way out of control.

 

[MrBlue]

SeaJay, my post/rant was directed at you individually but more to the entire internet DIR group.

Too bad egos keep flaring up and we can't have a civil discussion. I think there is/was alot for people to learn from this topic (balanced rigs), unfortunately it has degraded into a bunch of guys standing around tying to figure who's is bigger.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't think I stepped on my self. I was pointing out that balancing a rig such that you can dive it effectively without your wing may not work the way you think. I also pointed out why. I also pointed out that I've done it in the water and suggested you do the same before you give lectures on it.

 

[SeaJay]

scubanarc once bubbled...
I must be a looser too because I read your post the same way Mike did.

Well, then I suggest you go back and reread my post. I specifically said, "I'm a newbie" in the beginning, and "Get the answers from the GUE instructors" at the end. I've never claimed to be anything but what I really am. I even gave my own personal actual numbers. Why am I on the stand here? Someone asked a group which I belong to a question... For which I shared the answer that was taught to me. Now I'm "on the stand?" That's a completely bizarre thought process. You sure you're not a sock puppet for MikeFerrara?

I'm actually surprised you didnt use the word "stroke". I think your post is way out of line, Mike didn't call you any names.

Mike's a complete ***hole. I'll call him the names... I'm sick of his little tirades. The guy actually follows me around this board tr9ing to pick fights, and I'm sick of it. The guy's a complete loser with nothing better to do. Check the archives.

...And I would suggest looking at his history before associating yourself with him.

Personally I think that your taking this way overboard. You need to relax a little.

...Again, "two cents too much." Who asked you for your opinion?

He's right about your post, you come across like you've taken numerous classes from GUE and that you know everything there is about diving because you took a DIRF class and you've read the books and talked with a few big wigs from GUE.

That's funny, how does, "I'm newly DIR" and "Get the information from the GUE instructors because they're much better at this than me" come across as "I come across as having taken numberous classes from GUE and that I know everything there is about diving?"

You sure that you are not MikeFerrara?

Try to tone it down a notch.

Nope. Next time I'm looking for personality pointers, I'll be sure to ask you for them. In the meantime, I suggest that you take a long walk off a short pier with Mike.

Were all happy you have all these new great things in your life but honestly you sound like GUE is the Gospel. Its not. Their idea's are great but so are allot of others.

Who said anything about a "gospel?" The question was asked, and I gave the answer, being sure to mention that I'm new at this, but that I knew the answer. I didn't say anything about "being gospel."

That's a bizarre thought process!

...And what does this have to do with redundant bladders? If you want to argue with GUE about them, then present your facts rather than attack me on my merits, which I have posted plainly.

I'm not talking just about you when I state this but this board is getting brutal. I think I have contributed to this at times and its a shame. I read more and more posts every day from people that have a Halcyon wing and plate or they've taken a DIRF class and all of sudden they think their gods in the water and everyone elses idea's suck.

I smell a sockpuppet.

Then go in to preaching about stuff they have read but have never experienced because the only thing they've done with that backplate and that Halcyon wing and their DIRF class is weenie dives. Stop preaching so much and just offer advice.

What? "Stop preaching so much and just offer advice?" What are you on, man? What, exactly, constitutes the difference between "preaching" and "offering advice?" No matter anyway... In this case, a question was asked, and an answer offered... There was no "preaching" and there was no "offering advice" either. The question was simply answered... Which was a lot more than you contributed.

I believe you truly would like to have people see the light of things that you have experienced and at the same time sway them towards your side of thinking but just remember there is always another person on this board that has more experience then you or the people your getting your info from they just tend to prefer to stay out of the lime light.

Duh. There's always someone with more experience. What's that got to do with it?

The question was, "What does DIR say about..." I answered the question, preceding it with, "I'm new at this, but I know the answer..."

Conversely, YOU have offered your butthead opinion, unsolicited. Nobody asked you for it... Or Mike's. Then both of you have spouted pointless drivel about some sort of posting philosophy, even though neither of you have read any of the posts that you are offering your opinion on.

By the way Mike might not have been trained by GUE

Okay, freeze... What other point is there to be made? The question was, "What does DIR say about..." And somehow Mike's got something to say about this, even though he's never been GUE trained? He's never seen the inside of a classroom? Perhaps he can dive to a bazillion feet on superdupertrox... I don't care. The point is that the question wasn't, "What's it like on superdupertrox at a bazillion feet... The question was, "What does DIR say about...?" For that question, I am qualified to give an answer... At least moreso than MikeFerrara, who's never been to any GUE class.

...And my answer was, "I'm a newbie... This is what they told me..." and, "For the best answer, talk to your GUE instructor."

If you have a problem with that, then I say, "So what?" Nobody asked you for your opinion.

but I bet he's been trained by the people who started Hogarthian which GUE adopted.

Uh, I don't think so.

Even so... Even if that were true, how does that qualify him to answer the question, "What does DIR say about...?"

I dont think Chickdiver has ever taken a GUE course but I betcha she could teach you a thing or 2 about doing it right.

What? So? What's that got to do with, "What's DIR say about...?

This whole DIR, Anti-DIR thing is way out of control.

Yeah, no kidding... Here's the short answer to that problem:

Relative to expressing you opinion about DIR...
If you aren't currently using a 100% DIR rig, then keep your mouth shut.
If you have never been GUE trained, then keep your mouth shut.
If you have never read the DIR-F manual, then keep your mouth shut.

Simply put, unless you qualify for all three of the above, then your opinion is uneducated. Period.

 

[SeaJay]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I was pointing out that balancing a rig such that you can dive it effectively without your wing may not work the way you think.

Jeez, Mike... I didn't read that at all in your post... I read your uneducated and unfounded opinion on DIR.

Again, let me remind you that the question was very solidly posed at the beginning of this thread. You are the one who has taken this out of context and introduced caves, canister lights, other weight and trim issues, etc. The question was simple, and the answer was simple. You've managed to cloud the issue nicely.

...And nowhere did you say, "...Balancing a rig such that you can dive it effectively without your wing may not work the way you think." Instead, you directly attacked me and my credentials, which, as shallow as they are, are more than yours, relative to the question posed about DIR.

However, Mike, if you'd like to debate that "...Balancing a rig such that you can dive it effectively without your wing may not work the way you think," I would be happy to debate that with you... Although I have to agree with your basic premise. IMHO, it's true that, "balancing...may not work the way you think." I don't see that as debatable.

Instead, what sounds more like a worthwhile debate is whether or not a redundant bladder is a useful tool... Which was the original idea behind this post. I say no... Apparently you disagree. I'm going on the years of experience that founded an organization which has taught me some basics in a very short period of time. You have gone on just one person's opinion, although it's been your own personal experience.

Is that worth debating? I don't think so... If you want to dive with redundant bladders because that's been your experience, then feel free. I don't care how you dive. That's not my business, and I'm not in an educated position about your rig to offer my opinion.

Similarly, when the question is posed, "What does DIR say about..." please refrain from personally attacking me and my credentials, which are better than your own about what DIR says.

Now, if you have a bone to pick with DIR, then by all means... Feel free.

<Snip inflammatory statement. My apologies.>

 

[Uncle Pug]

SeaJay once bubbled...
keep your mouth shut.
keep your mouth shut.
keep your mouth shut.

You are not properly trained, certified nor appointed as a moderator on this board to tell others to keep their mouth shut.

Please refrain for doing so.

You may however politely ask folks to shut their pie hole if you can find a way to do it with civility.

Thanks.

 

[SeaJay]

MrBlue once bubbled...
SeaJay, my post/rant was directed at you individually but more to the entire internet DIR group.

Fair enough, MrBlue. Sorry that this came up during this thread... Mike tends to follow me around and attack me personally on a regular basis. It drives me nuts.

Too bad egos keep flaring up and we can't have a civil discussion.

We can. I think we all need to move him to our "Ignore Lists" though, in order for that to happen. I remember that he used to be on mine... I don't know what happened that he's not any longer.

But I can fix that...

I think there is/was alot for people to learn from this topic (balanced rigs), unfortunately it has degraded into a bunch of guys standing around tying to figure who's is bigger.

I thought the numbers that I brought up in my post were a good idea... They help to illustrate the point of the balanced rig. Someone who reads that can then go and do the same to their own rig... Helping to explain the idea behind the answer, "DIR says, 'no redundant bladders.'"