Question for those who plug their burst disks

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The DGX 'article' says that a burst disc could be dangerous on a small cylinder, propelling it around [despite being designed to eject gases in opposing directions?]

Has anyone actually seen this happen?

Anyone nuts enough to do a video testing or demonstrating this?
 
Is this "an old burst disc could spontaneously fail" thing actually happening? How many have seen this happen?
Yes, it happens when you are filling.
How old was the disc?
Who knows
Was it a disc that was under five years old and/or had been replaced at the last hydro (or not?)
No, it pretty much is only an issue with people that never service their valves.

A new 5250 disc will easily last 5 years of 3600 psi fills. They either fail on the first fill when you install them or they last 5 years. Never had or seen one fail that was 2-3 years old.
 
The DGX 'article' says that a burst disc could be dangerous on a small cylinder, propelling it around [despite being designed to eject gases in opposing directions?]

Has anyone actually seen this happen?
Yes, last week I had a 13 bouncing around the shop hooked to a fill whip.
Anyone nuts enough to do a video testing or demonstrating this?
Maybe, let me check the security cameras and see if they go back that far.
 
the hypothetical issue is liability. i would not want to be in the situation where your house catches fire and one of your plugged tanks explodes injuring a firefighter or your neighbor that is checking if anyone is trapped in the house rather than releasing through the PRD as designed.
That is so out there hypothetical that it doesn't border on fantasy vs reality it is miles into the fantasy realm.
 
That is so out there hypothetical that it doesn't border on fantasy vs reality it is miles into the fantasy realm.
While this incident isn't exactly what the person described, what he refers to may not be as far-fetched as it seems. I do agree that this is an edge case and an unfortunate situation.


The usefulness of pressure relief devices (PRDs) such as burst discs is debatable. Their main advantage lies in extreme heat scenarios, like during a fire. In those situations, a fusible plug is far superior to a burst disc, as it vents the gas contents much earlier and can usually be inspected from the outside. Both PRDs have the drawback of expelling gas in typically no more than three directions. Escaping flammable gases from a PRD can easily create flames exceeding 10 meters - a violent 10-meter torch, if you will.

In SCUBA, most test pressures for cylinders, which a sound cylinder will withstand without issue, fall into the working pressures of higher-rated cylinders. For example, a 166bar (LP?) working pressure cylinder has a test pressure of 277bar, which is quite close to a 300bar cylinder. It would have to be an extraordinarily bad day for a cylinder to be filled to that pressure. The valve would have to be mismatched, and the compressor operator would need to have shown gross negligence. As a result, incidents from overfilling are extremely rare and are almost always due to other factors compromising cylinder integrity.

Fire and rescue services have specific protocols for dealing with cylinders in a fire, which usually boil down to: "Stand as far back as you can and cool the cylinders. If you can’t safely cool them, just stay back." This is especially true for acetylene cylinders.

One major issue I have with burst discs, and a reason I’m glad they can’t be found in SCUBA gear in Europe, is that while their main advantage is in a fire (hopefully preventing the cylinder from exploding), there's no guaranteed way to know if they actually triggered. It is not guaranteed that the disc will trigger, it can fail to do its job, as as any other mechanical piece can fail. Maybe the pressure didn't reach critical levels as the cylinder wasn't fully charged, maybe the disc was faulty, maybe ...

Unless someone witnessed the burst disc rupture and the accompanying gas escape, it must be assumed that the cylinder is still fully charged. Handling a fully charged, fire-exposed cylinder is incredibly dangerous. For example, 6061 aluminum loses 50% of its tensile strength at just 200°C within half an hour. At 300°C, it loses 80% of its strength. Steel performs a bit better, but not by much. These temperatures are quickly reached in a fire.

Firefighters or anyone cleaning up after a fire must assume the cylinder is still fully charged, with the valve likely inoperable. Handling fire-exposed cylinders is often ill-advised, and transporting them for further examination or gas release could be disastrous. In some cases, the only solution is a controlled detonation, often achieved by shooting the cylinder from a distance.

A burst disc has a clear purpose: preventing explosions, particularly in a fire. However, I believe the downsides, especially for SCUBA, outweigh the benefits, particularly when its function is as concealed as it is in the event it actually triggers.

A pressurized cylinder in a fire sucks. In some cases, a burst disc might be advantageous, in others, it may make no difference. Worst of all, it can lead people to believe a cylinder is empty when, in reality, the burst disc failed to trigger.
 
I sure am glad then that orings, seat, and nylon washer behind the double discs in my tanks aren't fire rated
 
I sure am glad then that orings, seat, and nylon washer behind the double discs in my tanks aren't fire rated
That is a fair point, but I believe looking at things too simplistic. Sure, if I throw the whole cylinder valve first into a fire, the soft parts will melt quickly.

But what if only the lower portion of the cylinder is exposed to extreme heat and the upper part experiences moderate heat <150°C? What if a small cylinder with a flammable gas has its PRD triggered and produces a rather long pointy flame that hits a cylinder a few meters away somewhere in the middle?

Soft parts have of course melted in the past and released pressure. The thing is that they are not designed to vent excess pressure, but will only melt if certain temperatures are reached. Nylon 66 will melt somewhere around 250°C and that is what the seats are quite often made of. As mentioned above, 6061 aluminium loses half its tensile strength at only 200°C in half an hour.

Relying on the soft parts to melt is not the right way to go, as the numbers do not add up.
 
But I'm relying on my having fallen asleep on the toilet whilst smoking with the entire house burning down
and the tanks in the fire proof room being completely safe

Just as when I was devising my previous writings I knew you were going to come up with that extra bull ****

but I'm not going to swap all my valves out for no disc just to shut you up
 
In the US, the bulk of SCUBA cylinders in service are aluminum, not steel. In the case of aluminum cylinders in a fire, the cylinder wall itself will typically fail before the pressure in the cylinder becomes high enough to rupture the burst disk. Most house fires tend to burn at between 1000 °F, and 2000 °F, yet the wall of an aluminum 80 SCUBA cylinder when exposed to a temperature exceeding 265 °F can begin lose its annealed strength and will fail (i.e. explosively rupture) above 350 °F.

Consider an AL-80 when filled to it's service pressure at 3000 psi and 70 °F; using a formula derived from Gay-Lussac's Gas Law, when the cylinder is heated to a temperature of 400 °F the gas inside will have a pressure of approximately 4,600 psi. The standard AL-80 burst disk is rated for 5,000 psi. In a house fire, the side wall of aluminum cylinder can (and probably will) explosively rupture before the burst disk, especially if the cylinder is not filled to it's maximum service pressure. For example, if a partially filled cylinder contains 1,000 psi at 70 °F, it will be approximately 1500 psi at 350 °F or 2,800 psi at 1000 °F. That's more than enough kinetic energy to do serious damage when the cylinder wall ruptures. Experts don't consider the burst disk to be protection against overpressure explosions of aluminum cylinders exposed to fires. For the application of PRD's in SCUBA cylinders, the burst disk required by law in North America is a safety hazard (having been injured more than once by PRD's that failed during fills).
 
Yes, it happens when you are filling.

Who knows

No, it pretty much is only an issue with people that never service their valves.

A new 5250 disc will easily last 5 years of 3600 psi fills. They either fail on the first fill when you install them or they last 5 years. Never had or seen one fail that was 2-3 years old.
I've had them dribble leak due to corrosion although I don't know how old the disk was in those cases. One concern with the stainless plugs or doubled up copper disking is someone putting them in and then never touching them again. They can and probably will still leak eventually. If it's just air in the tank then who cares. But a dribbly leak of a rich mix will lead to massive tears at today's helium prices.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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