How great is the risk (in your perception)?

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Jim,
You're right, it is simple stuff. Unfortunately it is commonly not be taught, I choose to assume that the IT's & instructors don't understand it because if they do and not teaching it that is an issue that is far worse. It is easy to understand why most people would not be comfortable admitting that they were not taught this or that they don't fully understand it. It is interesting that no one has stepped up and said they they were taught it in their classes. You have known me for a long time and know how long I've been diving CCR's. This is an industry wide problem that is not being addressed.
 
@Bobby

Idea: start a new thread, post your blog and do a private poll asking CCR divers to vote yes or no if they were taught this information.
 
This is a thought provoking thread for me. I was tought linear deviation and limiting. But have never put any emphasis on either. Until now. So I've gone back, reviewed all my material and created a spread sheet. I dive a prism. The parameters for cell mv output included in my checklist take into linear deviation, I did the math on the limits.

And checked my cells when I did my prep today. All three are 98% after 10 month. So i think I'm on the right path on this account and have a good tool to keep track.

Cells being limited out, I may need some help with. I tried several times at 20' to get my cells to 1.6 without luck. 1.4ish. went a little deeper 26' and tried again 1.52. I'd like to be able to check it at my 20' bubble check/bailout in a easy and efficient manner if someone can lay it out for me ?

And what is the calculation to figure linear output at 20' and po2 of 1.6. I can add that formula into my spread sheet. I'm assuming your use your predicted mv at 100% and multiply by 1.6?
 
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I think most people who are against CCR diving are uneducated, undereducated or improperly educated about how they work. The common things I see are that a CCR is trying to kill you and that you'll never know about a problem until it is too late. Most divers seem to think that a CCR goes from perfectly able to sustain lift to deadly in the blink of an eye.

The fact of the matter is that, given a properly prepared and operated unit and no failures to cause catastrophic problems, most things change fairly slowly on a rebreather. I've been trained on 2 units by multiple excellent instructors. One of the things that every one of them did during training was a drill to show how long it takes for your PO2 to drop to a given limit, usually .5. Starting at a PO2 of 1.2, you shut off your oxygen and swim around until your PO2 hits .5. During my first training, my initial reaction was "Um....NO!!" However once I was in the middle of it I quickly realized that my PO2 was not going to fall to a dangerous level in a matter of seconds. It takes minutes to get to the point where I turn back on the oxygen.

I've also had the misfortune of finding the end of my scrubber life. It made my dive buddy more nervous than it made me, as soon as I started feeling like crap and bailed out I realized that my scrubber was depleted and it was my own damn fault. I'm sure it hits different people in other ways, maybe some have had a CO2 hit that was debilitating and they could not recover.

I've had my share of CCR failures in the time I've been diving rebreathers. I've had manufacturing defects cause a total failure of my unit in the middle of vacation, I've had minor issues that would fall under the "well I've never heard of that happening before" category. Why am I still alive to tell the tale? My first instructor taught me that bailing out is almost always the safest move and will afford you time to figure out if the issue is a "end the dive and fix the unit on the surface" issue or if it is something that can be handled in the water and then go back on the loop.

The hardest thing to do is to call a dive when you really do not want to call the dive. It's a mindset that you have to have if you want to have lots of successful CCR dives. When in doubt, bail out and end the dive. Never start a dive with a known failure. Never jump in the water without doing a pre-dive check and having done a build checklist. If you have opened the loop for any reason, do a positive and negative check to verify your loop integrity. Realize that it does not matter if you're on a bucket list dive many hours boat ride off the coast...if there's a problem call the dive. Finally don't be cheap. Oxygen sensors are too inexpensive to not change when it is time. Hoses that show signs of wear need to go before failure. Recommended maintenance must be performed at the proper interval...if you can't afford to have your unit maintained properly don't dive it.

I choose to dive CCR unless it's not an option. I like the silence, I enjoy the routine of assembling the unit and testing everything. When I'm on a boat, I love being the first diver in the water and the last one out. I definitely enjoy the extra time it affords me to deal with the unexpected. Is rebreather diving for everyone? Definitely not. You should be 100% comfortable and skilled at diving OC before you think about jumping on a rebreather. The time to find out if you're OK diving OC is not when you've bailed out because of an issue with your unit. Not everyone is emotionally able to scrub a bucket list dive because you've got an issue with the unit.

To answer the question, the risk is proportional to the skill, training, and emotional maturity of the diver. If you're trained properly in how to recognize problems and deal with them, if you've been trained well and are proficient in emergency procedures and unit maintenance, the risk is minimal. If you're inattentive, reckless, not mechanically proficient in maintaining the unit, or not able to make the call to not dive if you have an issue, the risk can be significantly greater.
 
I started the new thread with the poll....please participate.
 
This is a thought provoking thread for me. I was tought linear deviation and limiting. But have never put any emphasis on either. Until now. So I've gone back, reviewed all my material and created a spread sheet. I dive a prism. The parameters for cell mv output included in my checklist take into linear deviation, I did the math on the limits.

And checked my cells when I did my prep today. All three are 98% after 10 month. So i think I'm on the right path on this account and have a good tool to keep track.

Cells being limited out, I may need some help with. I tried several times at 20' to get my cells to 1.6 without luck. 1.4ish. went a little deeper 26' and tried again 1.52. I'd like to be able to check it at my 20' bubble check/bailout in a easy and efficient manner if someone can lay it out for me ?

And what is the calculation to figure linear output at 20' and po2 of 1.6. I can add that formula into my spread sheet. I'm assuming your use your predicted mv at 100% and multiply by 1.6?

A cell may be "limited" which means that it can be perfectly or close to linear up to a certain point where it will stop reading higher. That is why the 20'/6m check is so important. If we only check at 1 atm with O2 then the highest we can see is 1.0. If a cell is limited we may see 1.2 on our controller however we may be much higher such as 2.0. A good friend and CCR instructor died with this exact scenario.

To know what we expect to see at 20'/6m we nee to take the actual mv reading at 1 atm with O2 and multiply it by 1.6. If you use the linear number then you will not see what you expect at 20'/6m. You can do the math for deviation at 20' however it will come out the same as the 1.0 math. What you really want to know is that the linear drift is the same as the PO2 rises or does it drift further and possibly too much or are the cells limited below 1.6.
 
@a878bob to follow up on what @Bobby said, and I'm assuming he'll correct me if I missed something but it's the same stuff he explained to me years ago and IIRC is what is in his blog post though it has been a while since I read it.

Using easy math here to make it easier to understand
You have your calibration value in air for mV, which we assume is 20% O2, and it spits out 10mV
-MAKE SURE if you are doing this for real, and diving at altitude that you are adjusting to compensate for ambient pressure as that will change the ppO2 of air since cells measure ppO2 not fO2*. The UTD divers especially. I'm not sure how UTD teaches their CCR courses, but I know they don't think altitude matters for the decompression, but it sure as sh!t does for cell calibration

You then check your second calibration point using your O2 bottle to get a second data point, and one that is very close to your actual setpoint. If you are doing single point calibration, then O2 is infinitely better than air.
since 100%/20%=5, then we expect the cell if it performs perfectly linear to read 50mV
During this check you find that the cell is only reading 45mV.
Linearity math is 45/50=.9 so the cell is 90% linear in the range that you are able to check at the surface without pressurizing the system
If you cross check with say 40%, you would expect to see 40%/20%=2, 2*10mV=20mV, 20mV*.9=18mV so if you check against EAN40, it should read 18mV

the 1.6ppO2 check is important for two reasons.
The first is to make sure the cells are not current limited as the 1.0 to 1.6 range is going to be the "normal" operating range of the cells and without the ability to pressurize the head, you can't verify the cells in this range.
The second is to verify the linearity in this range.
So, at the 1.6ppO2 check, we know that 1.6/.2=8, so we can expect 8*10mV*.9=72mV. We do a loop flush with O2,, head down and see that instead of 72mV that we are expecting, the cell is only spitting back 64mV. While the cell behaved 90% linear up to 1.0, it's also exhibiting a 90% linearity from 1.0 to 1.6. for a total "drift" of 80% from .2 to 1.6.
We are also running EAN33.3 for Dil, with a planned depth of 102ffw, and do a dil flush at depth to validate. mV's should be the same as our O2 calibration of 45mV, and this is just a sanity check and validation, and it comes out at 45mV so all is well

So, expected readings
.2- 10mV
1.0-50mV
1.6-80mV
Actual readings
.2-10mV
1.0-45mV
1.6-64mV

As a diver, you have to determine what you are OK with accepting from a risk standpoint if the cells are drifting that much. What happens in the controller is that if you calibrate using air, and it's expecting to see 80mV at that 1.6 check, but it's only seeing 64mV, it does simple linear math. 64/10=6.4, 6.4*.2=1.28 so it will spit back out a ppO2 of 1.28 even though you are breathing 1.6. If you did your calibration using oxygen however, the math would be 65/45=1.42, 1.42*1.0=1.42 so the controller will give out 1.42 even though you are breathing 1.6.
See why the 100% o2 calibration is much better than air?
Also see why it may be a good idea to have your deco schedule run from an offboard computer instead of the onboard if the computer can't factor in that linearity?
Unless you are a math whiz, you may want to go for a relatively easy dive, record the mV's after dil flushes at certain depths as well as O2 flushes at say 10, 15, 20ft, and use those mV readings to create the table to plot linearity for those cells. On subsequent dives, validate that those mV readings are still close, and when they start getting out of your comfort zone, that is when it is time to replace them.
ppO2 readings lie, mV's don't
 
I'm following on the math. But getting my unit to 100% at 20' is the sticking point. I suck the cl down vent and fill with manual O2, repeat. The best I get is 1.4ish. at 26' I was able to get 1.52.
I'm not doing something right or my .98 cells are top limited. I'm betting it's my procedure. If someone will go through the 100% flush at 20' procedure, maybe I can catch up here.
 
...I'm not sure how UTD teaches their CCR courses, but I know they don't think altitude matters for the decompression...

I don't mean to drag this off topic, but just as a quick injection, UTD doesn't say altitude doesn't effect decompression :)
Rather, it can be, and is, adjusted for within the ratio deco framework (in fact, it's well described in their procedures).

If one has seen an old video snip out of context stating that "altitude doesn't matter", it'll probably have been related to a question about whether or not Ratio Deco works at altitude - as far as whether RD works, "altitude doesn't matter".

There's a vast difference. Just saying.
 
I don't mean to drag this off topic, but just as a quick injection, UTD doesn't say altitude doesn't effect decompression :)
Rather, it can be, and is, adjusted for within the ratio deco framework (in fact, it's well described in their procedures).

If one has seen an old video snip out of context stating that "altitude doesn't matter", it'll probably have been related to a question about whether or not Ratio Deco works at altitude - as far as whether RD works, "altitude doesn't matter".

There's a vast difference. Just saying.

This is also one of scubaboard myths. "UTD does not compensate for altitude." I have brought this up with a couple of UTD instructors and they frowned on me when they heard that. I believe when UTD started there was an error in their earlier texts which was corrected but the myth lives on.
 
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