Halcyon sueing OxyCheq, US Divers and others?

[Genesis]

Oh, here's the other funny part of this.

If you read the patents, they appear to cover non-ditchable weights attached to a cylinder or person to insure that their airway remains clear on the surface.

In other words, on their back, face-up.

Which, by the way, is a body position that is the antithesis of the "DIR-style" of diving

Now you could argue that a "V-weight" or "P-weight" would violate these "patents", as its (1) non-ditchable and (2) located before submersion and not able to be moved during the time underwater. And I put "patents" in quotes specifically because people have been using such weighting arrangements long before anyone decided to try to claim a patent on them, and those who made the claim had to know that such arrangements were in common use long before the so-called invention was devised. Of course they didn't (typically) use them for airway protection though..... at least not in a diving application.

There might be a novel claim for this sort of thing in a lifejacket application.... maybe.

But IMHO there is nothing novel at all about non-ditchable trim weights in a diving application. Indeed, non-ditchable trim weighting dates back before BCs existed.

BTW I did hear that IDI went under in no small part due to a lawsuit, but the details have not been made clear - specifically, if THIS suit was in any way related to that. If this little game caused Turtles to "go away", I suspect that a large number of DIR-style divers (all potential customers of one of Carmichael's buddies) might be REAL pizzed off. (I'm glad I own my two pair of Power Fins already!)

Anyone know if there's a connection between this suit and IDI's apparent demise?

 

[weekender]

this is an interesting thread. i don't know anyone who is GUE certified. so what I know about them is from their website and SB. am I correct in what I read, Mr. Jablonski is affiliated with GUE and Halcyon? also from what ive read; again not from what he or anyone from GUE have told me personally, the GUE/DIR set is rather aggressive at marketing Halcyon products. If this is true, doesn't this make anyone wonder about their motives when recommending gear? Now before anyone flames on me about this I feel its a legit question. im in no way trying to discredit GUE and dir's philosophy, teaching or anyone's diving ability. im just asking about marketing motives. im an instructor but always make a point of disclosing that im paid nothing by anyone to use or sell their gear. this makes me feel im giving an honest opinion. if i found out my instructor was paid to sell me gear i would take his recommendation with a grain of salt. similar to a broker telling me to buy a stock their firm has banking relationships with. am i at all correct? if im not then i must have read something wrong. if im right, am i the last diver on earth to know this? again not a dig on dir or gue just an honest question about people im not that familiar with.

 

[Boogie711]

Genesis - with respect, dude - you're REALLY reaching here. You're running around connecting a lot of dots just on your own whims and fancies - and now you're trying to blame Halcyon for killing IDI?

For heaven's sake - there is a judicial system. Why don't you stop passing judgement and let the Judge do that?


And Weekender - no. I have never heard a DIR instructor tell people to buy Halcyon. Ever. I know they like it for a variety of reasons, but you can be totally DIR compliant without a single stitch of Halcyon gear.

In fact, I challenge you to find ANY GUE graduate who would say their instructor told them to buy Halcyon anything. Certain components may have been recommended, and Halcyon perhaps provided as an example of a wing that does meet those components, but for the most part, they're actually quite careful around the "H" word.

 

[weekender]

Genesis - with respect, dude - you're REALLY reaching here. You're running around connecting a lot of dots just on your own whims and fancies - and now you're trying to blame Halcyon for killing IDI?

For heaven's sake - there is a judicial system. Why don't you stop passing judgement and let the Judge do that?


And Weekender - no. I have never heard a DIR instructor tell people to buy Halcyon. Ever. I know they like it for a variety of reasons, but you can be totally DIR compliant without a single stitch of Halcyon gear.

In fact, I challenge you to find ANY GUE graduate who would say their instructor told them to buy Halcyon anything. Certain components may have been recommended, and Halcyon perhaps provided as an example of a wing that does meet those components, but for the most part, they're actually quite careful around the "H" word.

fair enough. sounds good. again i have no beef with anyone, was just asking.

 

[scubasean]

In fact, I challenge you to find ANY GUE graduate who would say their instructor told them to buy Halcyon anything. Certain components may have been recommended, and Halcyon perhaps provided as an example of a wing that does meet those components, but for the most part, they're actually quite careful around the "H" word.

So, the instructor "recommends" the gear but they aren't making the gear purchase mandatory...In the eyes of the newly educated student, I fail to see much of a difference, unless they talk about other manufacturers' gear as also being compliant...Do they do that?.

I'm actually not for or against Halcyon, and am not Gue trained but have adopted many of their practices, but was commenting on the comment...LOL

:banana:

 

[Genesis]

Genesis - with respect, dude - you're REALLY reaching here. You're running around connecting a lot of dots just on your own whims and fancies - and now you're trying to blame Halcyon for killing IDI?

There is no "whim and fancy" about Carmichael and JJ's association, nor with how Brownies more-or-less started (via/through JJ and GI) what turned into GUE/DIR and Halcyon. Some links are clearly documented to this day, including Carmichael's listing on GUE's officer list (available through their public filings), ownership of Brownie's, etc.

OWNERSHIP of private corporations (e.g. who owns the stock) is much tougher to establish. That is not reportable, generally-speaking. Sometimes, but not always, such a person has an officer seat and thus shows up on corporate reports. There were two "silent owners" of my corporation that appeared NOWHERE on the corporate records, but they did own shares of the company. That is extremely common and is in no way improper. Beyond the officers and/or directors of a corporation, the "owners" have no voice other than their vote at shareholder meetings (which can include removing the directors!) This is all part of how corporations "work".

Halcyon Manufacturing is the corporation in High Springs; "Halcyon" is a registered fictitious name of the company. The only officer listed in Halcyon's public filings is JJ. You can call the Secretary of State's office and get a copy of any corporation's articles as filed currently (for a price), but the online info available is more limited - usually you can get officers, the registered agent (for service of process) and in many cases annual reports, which are typically a single-page form and contain little real information other than that the firm is a going concern.

Like I said, I do not know what suit caused IDI to take a dirtnap, but I heard about it happening back towards the end of last year and as I was looking for a second pair of Power Fins (larger, for my drysuit) I made sure I got them FAST. There are also rumors that the IDI death was only partially caused by a suit, and also partially by infighting among the owners/shareholders, so exctly what happened there I do not know - which is why I asked if anyone else did (and was willing to talk!)

You're off the deep end with your accusations Boogie.

In no way did I state that Halcyon caused IDI to take a dirtnap, but it is curious indeed that IDI's folding is coincident in TIME with these suits. I am quite curious about exactly WHY IDI went down; so far I have been unable to get a straight answer from anyone, and there are some folks who DO know but aren't talking. As such I asked a question, and pointed out the irony of a possible connection between these suits and IDI's demise.

Finally, as has been pointed out, Halcyon "proper" did not file these suits; a holding company did.

 

[chrpai]

OMG - too funny. Ben just moved to Oz from San Francisco, or somewhere like that...

Dude - I've said it before, I'll say it again - you REALLY need some anger management counseling.

Now be a good boy and apologize to Scubaroo.

\

California IS NOT the United States....

 

[OneBrightGator]

Seeing as this lawsuit is not yet concluded, I guess we will all just have to await a verdict (or whatever legal mumbo-jumbo happens) as to the validity of the claims and the ramifications for all involved.

We're not allowed to look at the material presented and make a decision on our own? Pretty much all the information a judge will have is public. Besides, I haven't passed judgement on who is right or wrong in the suit, but that the suit itself is illegitimate.

Ben

 

[caveseeker7]

Jeez, this is a heated debate. Everytime I hit refresh there are new posts ... .

I was at DEMA and heard of the rumor that Halcyon served atendees. And as it turns out they were just rumors.

Quite frankly I find it highly objectionable and legally questionable that either Halcyon or JJ gets slammed here for a lawsuit filed by another party.
If I were JJ or in any way associated with ownership in Halcyon I'd be p!ss!ng bricks by now ... . Calling for a boycott based on that suit is somewhere between unreasonable and stupid.

Patents were granted to Carmichael and Courney. Not JJ. Not Halcyon. Not EE, GUE or WKPP. I realize that whenever any of those abreviations, names or DIR or GI3 are mentioned two exteme sides are quickly formed and the flame throwing starts. But why here, other than the thread's title?

Jeggles (who started the thread with his 1st post on the board!?) obviously was fairly clueless about the nature of the suit, the people and business entities involved, and just repeated a rumor he picked up somewhere else.

Now with a copy of the suit floating around and a list of plaintiff and defendents posted, as well as the links to corporations and their officers both JJ and Halcyon should be out of the debate. The only connection between JJ, Halcyon and the lawsuit is the fact that Carmichael holds a postion on the board of GUE. A training agency which did not bring the suit (or, as a legal person, has any involvement with the patents that I can see).

So maybe it's time for some of you to cool it (if you need further help try cool aid ) and make an honest approach to think straight.
Stop slamming the guy and his company for something that's not his doing !

Finally, for the record, I own neither Halcyon equipment nor any shares in the company. I'm not on JJ's christmas list either.
I'm concerned about the lawsuit, and the damage or financial hardship they may cause some of the defendents. I own and use equipment made by three of them, DiveRite, Oxycheq and Deep Outdoors. I like all of it, in DiveRite's case also the excellent customer service, in Duffy's all the help he has provided over the years to RB divers. So yes, I'm very unhappy about them being named defendents. But why let it out on JJ and/or Halcyon?

 

[cornfed]

California IS NOT the United States....

Of all the childish and back-handed ways of getting out of admitting a mistake this one takes the cake!