GUE Fundamentals BP/W: Hopeless without Halcyon ?

[taimen]

@Roger Hobden please tell us which bp/ws you asked about and were refused?

GUE equipment standards are publicly stated in gue website and they are completely vendor neutral. I do not think that a list of "accepted equipment" would make this better, only less neutral towards manufacturers not on that list.

It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would reveal even some models that were not accepted.
My personal experience based on my fundies and gue buddies is that lots of non-halcyon gear is recommended and accepted by the instructors.

 

[Roger Hobden]

I am still waiting for the gear suggestions that the OP emailed about and that were dismissed.

I informed the GUE instructors by phone or by email that the only BP/W brands available in a store on the island of Montreal were the following: XDeep, Dive Rite, and ScubaPro. These instructors do not live nor, as far as I know, work in the Montreal area.

One of the problems is that Montreal is not a major world-class destination, and so the number of dive stores is limited. The other two dive shops on the island don't even sell backplate/wings.
And there are no GUE instructors in the Montreal area either, and thus no courses, and possibly only a handful of divers who are GUE-trained, so there is no "market" for dive stores to sell GUE compliant equipment.
All this creates a negative feedback loop which leads to stagnation.

BTW, I was given the friendly suggestion on SB to buy DSS equipment, but, same problem, no one sells this around here. Also, as a general philosophy, I prefer to support the local dive shops in my area, rather then the scuba diving equivalents of Amazon, Google, or Netflix, whether they are situated in the USA, or even in Canada.

As the whole BP/W thing is completely new to me, I have made the choice to buy local, even if it means getting "inferior" equipment, so that I can get immediate on-site help while I adjust my dive gear setup from one dive to the next. My understanding of the concept is that the balanced rig ideal can be reached by gradually adding weights to the cambands, and simultaneously removing disposable weights on the belt webbing. OTOH, I will be keeping 2-6 lbs of disposable weights on the belt just in case. No plans to ever use a canister light, and Trilobytes and ParaMedic scissors will fit in nicely in the remaining available space on the belt webbing also.

So there you have it.

 

[KevinNM]

Heres a shocker for you then... Extreme Exposure, the LDS attached to GUE headquarters... also sells gear that is not made by Halcyon, and offers training through PADI and other dive training agencies

The amount of garbage and misinformation that people with no GUE training toss about as fact on the internet is amazing.

EE predates both GUE and Halcyon. I understand it used to manufacture some equipment whose successors are now sold by Halcyon. My understanding is that JJ created Halcyon when he decided that he wanted to have EE to remain a dive shop instead of a manufacture of dive gear that sold gas fills.

 

[Roger Hobden]

If someone asks me "what wing/backplate should I get" I answer Halcyon. Because I have used that gear for 18 years and it works correctly for the training we in GUE provide. If they ask for alternatives, then I say I can't answer, because I don't know. I do have a list of brands/models that don't work well during GUE training, that I have compiled over the last 12 years of teaching GUE classes.

Very friendly and useful post. Thank you very much.
I am curious, though: According to your experience, there is no list of other models/brands that do work well during GUE training ?

I find that hard to believe, but on the other hand you seem to be pretty convinced of that state of affairs.

I can give good reasons why they are not ideal if someone asks me directly.

With, or without, naming any brands/models, would you agree to post a list of the key deficiencies that you have spotted over the years ? This information would be invaluable not only for me, but also for other dive beginners such as myself.

 

[taimen]

I informed the GUE instructors by phone or by email that the only BP/W brands available in a store on the island of Montreal were the following: XDeep, Dive Rite, and ScubaPro. These instructors do not live nor, as far as I know, work in the Montreal area.

Well,
Scubapro X-TEK Pure harness and a suitable donut wing from the same line is definitely GUE compliant.
X-Deep Hydros 40 backplate and wing are compliant.
X-Deep NX-Project BP/W has a V-shaped crotch strap that is not exactly compliant. It has been accepted by GUE instructors at fundies level. You can also order a conventional crotch strap from X-Deep to make it compliant. The backplate looks unconventional and there is a small padding between shoulders (that is neutral in water) which may cause doubt.
I don't see any reason why Dive-Rite basic harness would not be compliant, but I have not seen anyone use them. Dive-Rite wings have some bungees, but AFAIK they are optional and can be removed to make the gear compliant.

I am only a beginner gue diver myself, but this is how it goes. Needless to say, I dive a Halcyon bp/w (Evolve40)...

I am curious, though: According to your experience, there is no list of other models/brands that do work well during GUE training ?

I can tell you that my fundies instructor gave me a short list including gear from several manufacturers other than Halcyon.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I was able to take and pass my GUE classes using a Dive Rite BP, generic webbing, a variety of wings (Hog, Halcyon, Hollis), various regs (Apeks, ScubaMax, Hog, AquaLung, ScubaPro), different Drysuits (Bare, Pinnacle, Santi), Fins (F1s, Jets, Slipstreams), a $20 generic mask, Different lights (Dive Rite, DRIS, Dorcy, even a Halcyon Focus on a Dive Rite can), Light Monkey reel, various spools, etc...

I've been switching more and more gear toward Halcyon though, as I find it's extremely well made and dives well. The more of it I use the more I like it and understand why so many people switch to it. Not having it before was never an issue at any GUE event or in any classes...

@Roger Hobden , stop listening to folks with no firsthand experience

 

[johnkendall]

Very friendly and useful post. Thank you very much.
I am curious, though: According to your experience, there is no list of other models/brands that do work well during GUE training ?

I find that hard to believe, but on the other hand you seem to be pretty convinced of that state of affairs.


With, or without, naming any brands/models, would you agree to post a list of the key deficiencies that you have spotted over the years ? This information would be invaluable not only for me, but also for other dive beginners such as myself.

I can do my best, but I'd rather not talk brands or specifics. And please bare in mind, that there are dozens of products out there where with maybe some adjustment it can be made to work. I don't want my students and divers to have to make those adjustments, I want them to have gear that is both optimal for what they are currently doing, and will be optimal in their possible futures.

So here are some of my list. It is not exhaustive.
1 - Position of the holes on the backplate. You would think it was easy to get this right, but many brands mess it up. If the holes are in the right place, then the cylinders will be in the right place. If the holes aren't then neither are the valves etc
2 - Wing shape. Many wings are far too square, or have very wide side bands. These are stable in a head up postion. They are stable in a head down position, but they make it nearly impossible to be properly trimmed. The sides of the wing should curve.
3 - dump valve position - It needs to be in the right place, not too low, not too far from the edge of the wing.
3 - Webbing. needs to be the right thickness/stiffness. Too flexible makes it hard get into/out of. Too stiff makes it uncomfortable
4 - D-rings. Need to be the right thickness. Too thick makes it hard to clip onto.
5 - Buoyancy position. There are a load of wings that have recently arrived on the market with very little buoyancy at the top. They are nice and stable when upright on the surface, but terrible in good trim underwater, as they constantly try to dump you on your head. It's made worse when you add deco bottles etc.
6 - Webbing routing. I saw a harness today (Actually mentioned in one of the above posts) that has terrible webbing routing. It guarantees that the webbing is twisted and digs in. It also means the waist band is right over the diaphragm, so makes breathing hard.

Thats just my first comments, but all of these I've seen on wings that are said to be "compliant"

Thanks
John

 

[muzikbiz22]

To the OP, I would stop worrying/losing sleep about GUE, Halcyon, JJ, etc. Work on developing some other relationships with instructors, manufacturers, stores, etc. A 5 pound SS backplate is a 5 pound SS backplate. A quick call to Dive Gear Express, Dive Right In Scuba, Tobin in Calfornia (may have moved by now), and many others, would be way more beneficial. You have to remember at the end of the day, you are diving for YOU;, not an agency, philosophy, brand name, someone else's vision, etc. I dive for ME, not a team. I'm always able to adapt to OTHERS. I've been fortunate to dive with, buddy with, be mentored by, travel with, have a beer with with real-deal, heavy duty divers, instructors, authors, legends, authorities, manufacturers, PSD's, cops, navy divers, etc., and none of these people feel that there life is incomplete because they have nothing to do with GUE. I'm not discounting the education you can get from GUE, as ANY education is always a good thing.

 

[Dogbowl]

GUE is not for everyone, but if a diver has decided that’s the path they want to go on, they should be open minded to its standards and way of doing things. If not, it will just be a journey of frustration for student, instructor and teammates. A diver must be honest with oneself.

 

[JohnnyC]

The GUE standards are easily available and easily understood. If a diver does not possess the critical thinking skills to interpret those standards, I would question their ability to make smart gear buying choices, and simply recommend Halcyon.