You look like Steve Zissou looking for the Leopard Shark.
Greatest technological advancement ever!
- Thread starter Stuart Farmer
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With the ability to change the fins shape and stiffness which in turn changes the way water reacts to the movement of the the Ops Force Fin, you can have it all. This photo was taken by Matthew Ferraro while I was tending cable for 1200W underwater lights while filming in the Northern Channel Islands.
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Avi gets the rare opportunity to test the OPS Force Fin!
This one of kind fin design which has been tested in the field by a variety of professional divers, starting with me and my team at first at Ocean Futures Society. It has been in the field for over five years and Force Fin is gearing up for future production release. Sometimes you have to look into the past to see the future.
Nice looking fins and looks like a great concept. Few observations/questions though.
--How many recreational divers are gonna be willing to shell out $700 for a set of fins when they can almost buy a full diving rig for that price (new)?
--How many tech divers are gonna shell out $700 for a set of fins when they add at least two more failure points into a system (both connection points for the fin to the pocket)?
--How many tech divers are gonna shell out $700 for a set of fins that won't frog-kick/back-kick?
--If somebody is using less air with a set of fins it is becasue their finning technique is poor and they need to improve that, not fix it with a bandaid. I would be very interested in seeing if somebody that has a good finning technique has any change in air consumption with the fins.
--How many recreational divers are gonna be willing to shell out $700 for a set of fins when they can almost buy a full diving rig for that price (new)?
--How many tech divers are gonna shell out $700 for a set of fins when they add at least two more failure points into a system (both connection points for the fin to the pocket)?
--How many tech divers are gonna shell out $700 for a set of fins that won't frog-kick/back-kick?
--If somebody is using less air with a set of fins it is becasue their finning technique is poor and they need to improve that, not fix it with a bandaid. I would be very interested in seeing if somebody that has a good finning technique has any change in air consumption with the fins.
My only complaint is I look fat in that Picture!
I would love take a bunch of nay sayers on a dive and say Ok, tell me what I cant do with Force Fins and then do it. I am in Florida but, rockjock if we could arrange a time we could meet at my house in Alaska and we could dive. Beer would be included!
I would love take a bunch of nay sayers on a dive and say Ok, tell me what I cant do with Force Fins and then do it. I am in Florida but, rockjock if we could arrange a time we could meet at my house in Alaska and we could dive. Beer would be included!
Few observations rj (and I really do not mean to be (too) critical, nor do I mean to at all personal, BUT, how many SBers post on this Forum without observing that it is a ForceFin forum for goodness sakes!!!! This is hardly the place to find a sympathetic ear!
However, haven't you noticed that they (Bob, Blair, and others) have been gentlemen about disagreements and haven't told you (you collective, not meaning to be personal here) to "hit the road!"?Imagine going into the DIR/GUE forum and telling them they are idiots for acting like a bunch of stupid sheep doing "Simon Says" and "Mother May I?" and that they are all going to die because they can think outside the box and that using a yellow snorkel, BCD, SpareAir, AIR2, and plastic gear re-tractors are all good ideas? Asbestos underwear wouldn't be enough to protect you from the flames!
1.) IF a diver had bad form and was thus wasting air, but all that changed when they changed a piece of gear (like fins), I would say, "Bravo!" for the gear that helped them fix their sloppy technique! I would not call it a gimmick (or "band-aid"), that is for sure.
2.) I must have missed the post where it said you couldn't frog-kick with ForceFins.
3.) Connection points don't necessarily mean, "Oh my you're going to die because that is a failure point!" or they would weld the regulator to the tank and figure out a different method to fill them! They would also epoxy fins to your feet so you didn't need a strap!
I have yet to see anything junky coming out of Bob's lab. THAT is precisely the point. ForceFins are well put together. Divers above all are pretty conscientious about forking over dough for something that doesn't deliver, yet will pay top dollar for excellent gear, or for works for them.
Let me say a little about ForceFins and why I really like the company. I found my first pair on eBay for less than $100 and felt bad talking to them (Bob/Blair) about it because I didn't buy from the company. BOY WAS I WRONG! BOTH Blair AND Bob were elated that I was diving ForceFins. PERIOD! Even though my purchase didn't put a dime into their pockets! AND they have BOTH been so gracious with advice and suggestions. I am a nobody, not some big shot, yet they treated (treat) me like their best customer. God bless 'em!
O.K., now I do own 3 pairs, but still ...
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Great posts! Great posts.
The OPS blade is a fin that was first designed for Jean-Michel Cousteau's Ocean Futures Society Dive team.
They look great on camera and we were able to move CCR units, lights, cable and cameras through the water.
We used it exclusively with the Launch Pad foot pocket. As Holly S. Lohuis used to say "it is like riding a bike, you just start Switching GEARS underwater. It is easy - grab the outside of the blade and twist."
For me it is not my favorite Force Fin, but it is another smart fin and I really enjoy using it. For some of the diving we were doing I could not imagine a better fin. Blue water diving in Rangiroa and decompressing through the pass for segments in the Sharks at Risk episode for example. The OPS were truly remarkable.
Photo by Tom Ordway.
Rockjock3 thanks for post- another great read- - Force Fin is not looking into setting fin sales records with recreational divers, Tech Divers and anyone who primarily uses a Frog kick. If that was the reasoning behind the design and introduction into the field– We would fail- The OPS is not the fin for them. Outside of the Ocean Futures Society Dive team there are select individuals who have the OPS Fin with the Launch pad foot pocket and we are getting great reviews with a growing interest in seeing the model released to the public. Stay tuned
You mention $700.00 I hope I could get it at that price and I am aware of Special order OPS Force Fin that has gone for more. As I mentioned the OPS has been in the field for awhile and Bob Evans has been preparing to test his advancements on attaching the different blades to the foot pocket and the new design is amazing. Remember with the Launch Pad foot Pocket the choices of different blades is numerous.
The attachment point is a weak point in the system as you mention, but with over 7 years of using a launch pad foot pocket in a team setting ( multi pairs – not just mine in the water- ) I have never witnessed or experienced a break down at the attachment point.
Air consumption always comes up and it is also used as scale for some people to judge fins. I am a simple guy most of the time and I always judge my air consumption on work load and body temp not a particular technique of diving.
If I am working harder my rate goes up. When I push certain fins through the water my work load goes up and so does my SAC rate. At Force Fins we always say," All fins work! Do you work your fins or do your fins work you?"
Thanks again for all the great posts from everybody!
The OPS blade is a fin that was first designed for Jean-Michel Cousteau's Ocean Futures Society Dive team.
They look great on camera and we were able to move CCR units, lights, cable and cameras through the water.
We used it exclusively with the Launch Pad foot pocket. As Holly S. Lohuis used to say "it is like riding a bike, you just start Switching GEARS underwater. It is easy - grab the outside of the blade and twist."
For me it is not my favorite Force Fin, but it is another smart fin and I really enjoy using it. For some of the diving we were doing I could not imagine a better fin. Blue water diving in Rangiroa and decompressing through the pass for segments in the Sharks at Risk episode for example. The OPS were truly remarkable.
Photo by Tom Ordway.
Rockjock3 thanks for post- another great read- - Force Fin is not looking into setting fin sales records with recreational divers, Tech Divers and anyone who primarily uses a Frog kick. If that was the reasoning behind the design and introduction into the field– We would fail- The OPS is not the fin for them. Outside of the Ocean Futures Society Dive team there are select individuals who have the OPS Fin with the Launch pad foot pocket and we are getting great reviews with a growing interest in seeing the model released to the public. Stay tuned
You mention $700.00 I hope I could get it at that price and I am aware of Special order OPS Force Fin that has gone for more. As I mentioned the OPS has been in the field for awhile and Bob Evans has been preparing to test his advancements on attaching the different blades to the foot pocket and the new design is amazing. Remember with the Launch Pad foot Pocket the choices of different blades is numerous.
The attachment point is a weak point in the system as you mention, but with over 7 years of using a launch pad foot pocket in a team setting ( multi pairs – not just mine in the water- ) I have never witnessed or experienced a break down at the attachment point.
Air consumption always comes up and it is also used as scale for some people to judge fins. I am a simple guy most of the time and I always judge my air consumption on work load and body temp not a particular technique of diving.
If I am working harder my rate goes up. When I push certain fins through the water my work load goes up and so does my SAC rate. At Force Fins we always say," All fins work! Do you work your fins or do your fins work you?"
Thanks again for all the great posts from everybody!
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Few observations rj (and I really do not mean to be (too) critical, nor do I mean to at all personal, BUT, how many SBers post on this Forum without observing that it is a ForceFin forum for goodness sakes!!!! This is hardly the place to find a sympathetic ear!
Imagine going into the DIR/GUE forum and telling them they are idiots for acting like a bunch of stupid sheep doing "Simon Says" and "Mother May I?" and that they are all going to die because they can think outside the box and that using a yellow snorkel, BCD, SpareAir, AIR2, and plastic gear re-tractors are all good ideas? Asbestos underwear wouldn't be enough to protect you from the flames!
1.) IF a diver had bad form and was thus wasting air, but all that changed when they changed a piece of gear (like fins), I would say, "Bravo!" for the gear that helped them fix their sloppy technique! I would not call it a gimmick (or "band-aid"), that is for sure.
2.) I must have missed the post where it said you couldn't frog-kick with ForceFins.
3.) Connection points don't necessarily mean, "Oh my you're going to die because that is a failure point!" or they would weld the regulator to the tank and figure out a different method to fill them! They would also epoxy fins to your feet so you didn't need a strap!
I have yet to see anything junky coming out of Bob's lab. THAT is precisely the point. ForceFins are well put together. Divers above all are pretty conscientious about forking over dough for something that doesn't deliver, yet will pay top dollar for excellent gear, or for works for them.
Let me say a little about ForceFins and why I really like the company. I found my first pair on eBay for less than $100 and felt bad talking to them (Bob/Blair) about it because I didn't buy from the company. BOY WAS I WRONG! BOTH Blair AND Bob were elated that I was diving ForceFins. PERIOD! Even though my purchase didn't put a dime into their pockets! AND they have BOTH been so gracious with advice and suggestions. I am a nobody, not some big shot, yet they treated (treat) me like their best customer. God bless 'em!
O.K., now I do own 3 pairs, but still ...
Sorry, I did not know force fin owners were as fanatical as they say other groups of divers are, guess I was wrong.
I never said they were crap, bad, or anything else. I also, unlike yourelf, wasn't a jerk. I asked some honest questions. I never said or insinuated that they didn't have the answers. I simply asked some questions and made some observations based on my experience. If you don't feel compelled to actually join the concept of the scubaboard forum by helping to share knowledge and pass on what you know or learn, then feel free to continue on as you are and get lost.
As for somebody's form being poor. Well, that was an observation based on my experience. If you are sooooo fond of the fins and think that it is great that they "bandaid" a problem (which they do, whether you like it or not, if they help them do better with improper form) with some divers, which they do if their air consumption jumps that incredibly, then use my observation to show how truly good the product is instead of blanketly jumping on me. If they greatly improve somebody's air consumption, that has improper finning technique, then I would be very curious if this dramatic change would either be less dramatic or even more dramatic once they learn proper finning technique and move from regular fins to these fins.
As far as frog-kicking, I believe somebody said you couldn't (might have implied). I asked how many tech divers would be willing to buy a fin if they can't perform these kicks with them. If you can frog-kick efficiently with them as well as back-kicking then great, then that answers/corrects one of my questions. The point of my questions/observations were (coming from both a tech and rec background) was posting honest questions that would be concerns from divers in both of those areas.
I appreciate that you are a loyal and satisfied customer, as I am sure they do. The problem with that is that friends and loyal customer that have had good experiences don't always want to tell their "friends" the truth, or don't always ask all the questions needed. I would think the questions that somebody needs most are those from people just like me. I have a broad experience base and have tried several fins, I also have no previous experience with these fins to sugarcoat my opinion one way or the other. I am just truly interested in a new product and also wish to help by offering some of my observations and asking some questions.
As a primarly tech diver I my obvious concerns are tech based. I dive rec as well, however, so asked some questions from that aspect. As for kicking style, I do frog kick most of the time, but adjust as conditions dictate. I have several fin kicks in my tool bag for different situatons just as you carry 14 different golf clubs for different shots. I have tried several types of fins and always come back to my trusty $100 scubapro jet fins with spring strap. I just haven't found a set of fins that is nearly as durable and delivers the power that they do with so little effort. That is not to say that I wouldn't try other fins if they were able to possibly deliver as good or better performance. Heck, it would be nice to be able to use the same pair of fins for both snorkeling and diving as the jets are the best for snorkeling (very negative and not great for longer sessions of flutter kicking).
For better or worse I am not somebody that goes with "the crowd" in any aspect. I held off on a BP/W forever. Then, when I finally decided to try one, I researched it a lot, tried several and now have never looked back. Oh, I have dove with a BC from time to time since then, but it just isn't the same. On that note, however, I don't feel that a everybody has to dive a BP/W. You dive what fits your diving style. Do I feel that most divers would benifit from a BP/W, yes. Do I think they can't be a good diver if they don't, no. Will I dive with them either way, if they are safe divers I will.
I simply tried to ask some unbiased questions. Sorry if my open-mindedness offended you.
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DennisS
Contributor
I was looking at force fins, a little out of my budget but I would have liked to give them a try.
Then I read someone that just couldn't wait to find Scubaboard and say how honored they were to have a pair of fins, as a matter of fact most of their 4 posts were about force fins
There was an on line scuba store that used to have lots of people with under 10 posts on scubaboard claiming their undying love for this store. It seems like an OK store but I won't buy from them.
I won't eat at restaurants that have a guy out front shilling customers either.
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