Greatest technological advancement ever!

[danvolker]

You might be surprised what a one off fin might cost...



You should look into the Extra Force TanDelta with Whiskers, in side by side testing with the Picasso Team Black, Cressi Gara (the stiffer ones) and Omer (don't remember model, but it wasn't carbon) fins had them match the speed, albeit the kick rate was a little higher. I can pretty much promise that you can't over kick them, not to mention they are incredibly durable (my pair is 10 years old, with 200-300 dives on them), they look like hell, but they are still awesome. I didn't see where you are located, but if your close I would be glad to let you try them.

I will say this much from my testing, the long blades could make lots of speed, but that speed could not be repeated, all of the divers that did the test showed the same results, great first runs and mediocre second runs even with good periods of rest (at least 3 minutes for a 10-15 second sprint). The ForceFins were repeatable to with very close speeds. The really interesting part was that the stronger divers that could really flex the fin were MUCH faster than the weaker diver that could not "activate" the flex of the fin, even though with other fins (ie Bio-Fin or Jets) the 2 divers were similar. This is why I rarely recommend them to people, as I found that most divers are simply not strong enough to flex the blade enough to make them go and they just get really tired using it.

Hi Meesier,
I tried the Extra force fins years ago....a huge improvement for a fit diver over the classic force fins, but for me they did not give me the "kick and glide" or high cruise speed for my freediving fins....
You did mention some decent freediving fins, but the B&W Specials by Specialfins.com I have been using for the last 2 years, will blow away cressis or picassos-- the B&W's create much less muscular effort, with much more speed...ie, my bottom time is much better whether scuba diving or freediving.

'Kick and glide" is one strategy for getting the most out of a freedive fin...particularly the stiffer ones like the C 40 Mustangs I just got. To be useful for scuba divers, they need to be hydrodynamically slick in the water, as in backplate and wing DIR gear configurations..if they are, a nice glide allows the muscles a good rest interval, and keeps breathing rate low.

The 2nd and 3rd round freedive fin testing issue you mentioned, is probably related to depleted glycogen levels, in divers without competive cycing level fitness, and who do not have their muscles acclimated to the muscle use peculiarities of kicking freedive fins.

Another testing issue that I imagine would be a problem, is that most good divers who have never used freedive fins, will not learn the proper technique to use them efficeintly in one day, or sometimes even a few days of use. Different muscles, different coordination. But I am not trying to argue about the large contributions Bob Evans has made to diving. I am just trying to get some of this to effect my diving
As to price.....After you buy a boat for diving, and DIR gear for tech and recreational, I really don't think the price of the fins should be that big a deal--if you see your own propulsion in diving as important as I do....if you are saying $20,000 or some really large cost, then fine, I may decide it's too much....How about getting some real parameters on what the cost would be....and the result ( the only guarantee I would need, would be that the Force fin freediving fin would have to propel me better than the special fins, and as well as the C4's...
I think Bob knows I will be fair in this, so we should be able to do something here....
Regards,
Dan

 

[meesier42]

Hi Meesier,
I tried the Extra force fins years ago....a huge improvement for a fit diver over the classic force fins, but for me they did not give me the "kick and glide" or high cruise speed for my freediving fins....

were they the TanDeltas?? the TanDelta material really doesn't compare to the standard material

The 2nd and 3rd round freedive fin testing issue you mentioned, is probably related to depleted glycogen levels, in divers without competive cycing level fitness, and who do not have their muscles acclimated to the muscle use peculiarities of kicking freedive fins.

Another testing issue that I imagine would be a problem, is that most good divers who have never used freedive fins, will not learn the proper technique to use them efficeintly in one day, or sometimes even a few days of use. Different muscles, different coordination.

Dan

Except that, 1) I am a ametur cyclist (riding 100-200 miles a week), and former competitive swimmer and 2) all of the other divers are competitive spearfishers that primarily use the long blade fins that we tested. which included (FF Extra TD, Excelleratoring TD, FF Pro, Omer Matrix, Picasso, Cressi Gara 2000, Tusa Xpert split, Atomic Smoke on the Water, and a couple of others)

and.. when we used the same rest periods between fins, the divers speed improved. We were careful that each would switch from a long blade to a short blade and back. All of the data said that the long blades averaged slowing down 1.2 seconds on the second run, the short blade fins averaged an improvement of 0.2 seconds. We also made sure that each fin was used in a different order by each diver to account for getting tired. overall it was a good test with as consistent results when they were analyzed, should be published soon in Spearing Magazine. For top speed the FF Extra TanDelta was the fastest single run fin with the Omer Matrix just barely behind.

 

[Bob Evans]

Dan, thanks for thinking of me making you the best freediving fin. I made a cast of Jean-Michael Cousteau foot and now I plan to make him a custom right and left foot pocket out of ethafoam. Then I will lace it down to the fab force design process I patented several years ago. You gave me very good feed back on the fab model you tested years ago. Remember the angle of blade was wrong and you felt you were being pushed down. I did correct the angle but kind of dropped the project. The cool thing is that I can make any length of blade with my non-molding method. How about six feet long?. Things are kind of crazy now, but I will get started on Cousteau's custom foot pockets and keep you and Meesier42 in the loop. Thanks for wanting to help me with this fin. I told you years ago, if it passes your testing we will have a winner. Plus with the ops concept you will be able to change blade stiffness on the go.

 

[danvolker]

were they the TanDeltas?? the TanDelta material really doesn't compare to the standard material




Except that, 1) I am a ametur cyclist (riding 100-200 miles a week), and former competitive swimmer and 2) all of the other divers are competitive spearfishers that primarily use the long blade fins that we tested. which included (FF Extra TD, Excelleratoring TD, FF Pro, Omer Matrix, Picasso, Cressi Gara 2000, Tusa Xpert split, Atomic Smoke on the Water, and a couple of others)

and.. when we used the same rest periods between fins, the divers speed improved. We were careful that each would switch from a long blade to a short blade and back. All of the data said that the long blades averaged slowing down 1.2 seconds on the second run, the short blade fins averaged an improvement of 0.2 seconds. We also made sure that each fin was used in a different order by each diver to account for getting tired. overall it was a good test with as consistent results when they were analyzed, should be published soon in Spearing Magazine. For top speed the FF Extra TanDelta was the fastest single run fin with the Omer Matrix just barely behind.

I stand corrected...The test sounds far better than I could have imagined....

I thought about the results you discussed for awhile....to explain my personal experiences with other divers and fins, I can only guess at what might be going on...I don't typically swim at 100% full speed with freedive fins--you just don't have that type of issue--maybe once or twice in 200 dives.....but I do hit a fast cruising pace on most dives, that can last for 10 to 40 minutes, depending on what I am looking for ( lobster, fish, wrecks, structure, etc)...and it is on these fast cruising pace dives, that we have found no divers without freedive fins, who will be able to match pace--regardless of fitness level.
Also, I can think of a few situations where I did do a 100% burst of power, and the freedive fins will not handle that amount of torque--so they noodle for me at that type of effort--this could be where the Tan Delta "could" beat them.....I would still like to see the "kick and glide" comparison, as well as dolphin kick comparison ( also tremendously effeective alternate kick for freediving fins....

I could certainly buy a pair of Tan Deltas, and let one of my friends that can usually "just barely" keep up, use the Tan Deltas on the next big cruise pace dive.......thanks to your test info, I may just have to spend some money

Regards,
Dan V

 

[danvolker]

Dan, thanks for thinking of me making you the best freediving fin. I made a cast of Jean-Michael Cousteau foot and now I plan to make him a custom right and left foot pocket out of ethafoam. Then I will lace it down to the fab force design process I patented several years ago. You gave me very good feed back on the fab model you tested years ago. Remember the angle of blade was wrong and you felt you were being pushed down. I did correct the angle but kind of dropped the project. The cool thing is that I can make any length of blade with my non-molding method. How about six feet long?. Things are kind of crazy now, but I will get started on Cousteau's custom foot pockets and keep you and Meesier42 in the loop. Thanks for wanting to help me with this fin. I told you years ago, if it passes your testing we will have a winner. Plus with the ops concept you will be able to change blade stiffness on the go.

Hi Bob,
Please do keep me on the loop on this....and for length, I would like longer than normal freedive fins, but I would probably NOT want to double the normal length
Of course, I will always be willing to test something like that
Plan me in to your one off program. Lets do this!

Regards,
Dan Volker

 

[meesier42]

the testing we did was focused not on efficiency but on accelleration. We were doing dead sprints for ~15yards. The idea was to simulate closing on a fish for the shot. I didn't design the test, the guys from the magazine did, I was suppling the ForceFins and making sure the test had some reasonable controls and did the data analysis.
I will say that I really don't think that we overstressed any of the fins that we tested, but perhaps we did, I am not opposed to the idea that we had a flaw in our test, would like to think that we did a good job of minimizing them. I would like to test lots of other fins and do a series of additional test, but they all take lots of time to complete, more than I think we could do in even a week of diving, so that we can try to eliminate any personnal preferences.

 

[Stuart Farmer]

I haven't tried a back kick underwater. I will have to give it a try. A frog kick is possible but is doesn't feel right to me with any fin. I have adopted a dolphin or butterfly kick which has proven to be very effective and powerful.

 

[Blair Mott]

This Thread has some great feedback and well worth the read, but i thought I would post a few photos that shows some of the first blades designs that I tested with Ocean Futures Society many years ago.

Looking at this photo Bob took of Jean-Micheal Cousteau reminds what one of my fellow team members used to say. It is easy as switching gears on a bicycle. "just grab the outside of the fins and twist. This photo was taken after JMC made some adjustments on the OPS blade while diving in Fiji.

Truly a unique Fin that is still out in only few numbers, but has gone through years of testing and improvements. Someday if might be on the market with new attachment devices and custom foot pockets per individuals.

The blades sit in the Ocean Futures Society warehouse many years ago before Bob decided he had the blade the way he liked it and the way it would work the best for the diver.

 

[simmonsjr]

I can only stay in the water as long as my air hog dive buddy has air so 600 dollars, I think I will save that and buy something more practical like skid of bricks.

Or... Convince your buddy to invest in them as well. Then you both get to stay down longer. Sounds like a win-win situation to me!

Seriously though, I wouldn't discount anything that Bob Evans comes up with. All of his designs are meticulously researched and tested. He pays attention to details that most fin manufacturers don't even think about.

And, as others have pointed out, all of his gear is made in the USA. Do yourself a favor beg, steal, or borrow a pair, but give them a try. Just realize that you do kick them a bit differently then conventional fins (straight legs, two to three feet of fin travel).

Jason

 

[Blair Mott]

I am using the OPS Force Fin to perform an height entry for a PROMO shoot. Safety diver Zim Gervais is rushing out to meet me after splash and ensure my safety. Just another place where the OPS Force Fins have been. Photo by Karen K.