General Vortex Incident Discussion

[mdax]

How much cash is sitting in his checking account? debt?
What is the timing and amount of life insurance purchased?

some cash, no debt and no life insurance sure would paint a different picture than the converse...

I think people risking their lives in the cave should be privy to this information.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Kevin, I think most will turn when they hit the low section and that is an easy part. I think there is also a line of thinking that this cave is like others. It seems some think it is a large cave with lots of offshoots and such, when in reality it is pretty small with only a few offshoots. I don't think it is possible for a diver to get anywhere that is out of the the flow like Telford. If the recovery divers, espacially after 6 days, didn't smell, or actually taste, a decomposing body back there, it means no one is there. Anyone standing around would have overheard that conversation. Any other public safety divers here can assure that will happen. This cave is not big enough for someone to get out of the flow....it just isn't.

Yeah Edd and I were there on day 14 and we were not liking the idea of what was going to happen if we got close to him. Edd was told the night before to be ready for the taste to be overwhelming, I wasn't real happy when he shared that with me LOL.

 

[ScubaNurse758]

Anyone care to wager a guess on when the lawsuit is filed???

 

[sabbath999]

Anyone care to wager a guess on when the lawsuit is filed???

The day after a body is found (if it ever is).

Pretty hard to sue without firm evidence that he died there.

 

[cruiser]

How much cash is sitting in his checking account? debt?
What is the timing and amount of life insurance purchased?

some cash, no debt and no life insurance sure would paint a different picture than the converse...

I think people risking their lives in the cave should be privy to this information.

There was talk on a Memphis message board that Ben had gotten married a few years ago. Yet there is no mention in the newspaper articles of a wife. Just wondering if there were some personal problems (besides financial) that could have prompted a disappearance.

 

[diverdoug1]

Kevin, I think most will turn when they hit the low section and that is an easy part. I think there is also a line of thinking that this cave is like others. It seems some think it is a large cave with lots of offshoots and such, when in reality it is pretty small with only a few offshoots. I don't think it is possible for a diver to get anywhere that is out of the the flow like Telford. If the recovery divers, espacially after 6 days, didn't smell, or actually taste, a decomposing body back there, it means no one is there. Anyone standing around would have overheard that conversation. Any other public safety divers here can assure that will happen. This cave is not big enough for someone to get out of the flow....it just isn't.

SPD, I wonder if the lack of smell or taste in this situation might yield a high false negative result when using this method to determine the presence of a body. I have no objective research to support this statement, other than my own anecdotal evidence. I have been involved with the underwater recovery of 9 bodies. 6 of these were fairly advanced in their state of decomposition. I noticed a "taste" on 4 of these decomp. cases, but did not on the other 2 decomps. The four I "tasted" were in stagnant/slow moving water, whereas the decomps that I did not taste were in water with a slow to moderate current (of course, once brought out of the water, there was considerable bad odor on all decomps). On one of the cases, I did not touch the body after locating it (one of the "no tasters") and when I exited the water, my gear had no appreciable odor. The flow I have experienced in my previous trips to Vortex in certain areas was faster than the flow rate I experienced with the recoveries where I did not taste decomposition. I wonder if the flow in Vortex could possibly have kept the recovery divers you mention from having this very unpleasant and unforgetable experience.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

SPD, I wonder if the lack of smell or taste in this situation might yield a high false negative result when using this method to determine the presence of a body. I have no objective research to support this statement, other than my own anecdotal evidence. I have been involved with the underwater recovery of 9 bodies. 6 of these were fairly advanced in their state of decomposition. I noticed a "taste" on 4 of these decomp. cases, but did not on the other 2 decomps. The four I "tasted" were in stagnant/slow moving water, whereas the decomps/ that I did not taste were in water with a slow to moderate current (of course, once brought out of the water, there was considerable bad odor on all decomps). On one of the cases, I did not touch the body after locating it (one of the "no tasters") and when I exited the water, my gear had no appreciable odor. The flow I have experienced in my previous trips to Vortex in certain areas was faster than the flow rate I experienced with the recoveries where I did not taste decomposition. I wonder if the flow in Vortex could possibly have kept the recovery divers you mention from having this very unpleasant and unforgetable experience.

That's not the method that was used in the search, that was a warning to us to be prepared for the possibility. To have experienced it he would have actually had to be there in the first place which he isn't. Sounds like we didn't miss a good experience anyway, I think that's one experience I can happily pass on.

 

[diverdoug1]

That's not the method that was used in the search, that was a warning to us to be prepared for the possibility. To have experienced it he would have actually had to be there in the first place which he isn't. Sounds like we didn't miss a good experience anyway, I think that's one experience I can happily pass on.

Yeah, I did not mean to imply that was the method used for the search, I was just questioning the statement that the lack ot taste/smell excluded the presence of a decomposing body. (and you are correct about it being a bad experience)

 

[tracydr]

One of you sidemount divers please correct me -- Isn't the above like super way more further advanced than the missing diver? As in, a few really experienced full cave guys might do this?

Maybe he learned how to to do it on you-tube?

 

[bigken462]

Yeah, I did not mean to imply that was the method used for the search, I was just questioning the statement that the lack ot taste/smell excluded the presence of a decomposing body. (and you are correct about it being a bad experience)

There is hardly anything in this thread that my lack of experience could contribute to, but I, as well as many other public sector groups (Fire, EMS, Police) etc. I can tell you this Kevin, If you can avoid it, do so. God I understand someone has to do it, but I can honestly tell you today - 21 years later from my first body recovery with advanced decomp that you'll carry those odors, tastes and regretfully sights with you till you yourself are laid to rest. It's just not something a human - or at least myself can easily put aside. While I always try to preserve the integrity of our field by showing some form of compassion for the victim – and family during recovery, often times I try to separate the fact that I'm fumbling with a human body. This is often challenging at best when your only left to putting piece by piece in lil red bags. For this reason is why I have refused on more than many occasions to take part in body recoveries which require diving in our nearby lakes and ponds. For me personally, diving is my only escape from the coldness of this world. I suppose though that everyone is different. Too bad we can’t use Vic’s vapor rub in our mask and mouthpiece. Ouch!