General Vortex Incident Discussion
- Thread starter Cave Diver
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Every nano inch? I got the impression he was a strapping young guy. I presume you are using hyperbole - every foot should be more than enough!
100% certain? Few things in life are.
I'm not so sure buoyancy skills are needed when things get tight - but I lack all of the training to get into such a situation. The videos made it look like one wiggles through the tight spots. Other remarks lead me to the conclusion he was far better than the average OW diver - just not trained for the cave environment (and unaware of what he did not know for this environment). If I understand it correctly, he also did caving in dry environments (not submerged) and may have incorrectly thought those skills transfered to the underwater cave environment.
For the sake of his friends and family, I hope the mystery is quickly resolved.
The cadaver dogs are keying on something decomposing in the water. I am not familiar with the techniques used to train them. Is it possible that the scent they are responding to is not human in origin? Could it be an animal carcass or even a large part of an animal?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Inquiring minds want to know.
ucfdiver
Contributor
Kevin Carlisle
Contributor
Try responsibility. Its an investigation, most people understand that concept.
Ok maybe my attempt at humor was lame...the terrorist talk was obvious hyperbole (saying Seriously though indicates its a joke, maybe in bad taste, but still a joke). For one thing I dont think that I have a right to up to the minute information, and I never second guessed anyone that said they didnt want to give out information. As far as responsibility, I am very glad that any responsibility with this incident is not my own, far more experienced people are handling it. I just felt that the 'nuff said' comment was a bit rude given my post was a serious question, which Cave Diver has now answered, thank you.
Crush
Contributor
I withdraw my comment, James. Your post seemed harsh to me, but others seem to share your position. I am clearly out-of-the-loop, both in terms of training and in terms of geographic location.
I look forward to reading of a resolution, perhaps many months from now.
Cudos to the searchers. Those who think that their efforts were insufficient need to re-think their positions.
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Mark Michaud SELAUSAR
Contributor
Again, from the perspective of a police officer and police diver, things that are apparent clues at the beginning of an investigation do not always lead to the solving of a case. Many times things are, found to be, not what they are made to appear. This may or may no be the case. Every search I have done, in the water (diving), or say with a police K-9 and his handler on land, has not always found what we wanted to find. Sometimes we just ruled out where something wasn't. That is all part of an investigation.
A bank robbery, for example: The dog pulsl really hard to the next parking lot and behind a dumpster. Then he shows no interest at all. You cast him a round some more in other area's and he shows no interest. Put him back on the initial search area, he shows interest again, pulling hard to the same dumpster. That tells me a car, or means of conveyance was parked there and bad guy ain't there no more.
The initial evidence, and the vehicle and log books, and interviewing family, co-workers in PCB, dive shops, etc are all part of trying to rule out where he isn't. You can bet his finances, tax records, phone calls, everything is being looked at right now. The sheriff has a case that he can not afford to go unsolved. I said, somewhere before, this is a homicide investigation until proved otherwise. A homicide is any death that is caused from un-natural causes. If there is ever a question in a death, or what appears to be a death the investigation has to be done this way. You can never go back and get evidence once you leave it.
There is also a huge sign of a submerged body after say 3 or 4 days under water that is not cold, though 68 is cool, it is not cold. Search divers should have thrown a clue, that would have been overheard, that would be pretty much proof positive. Maybe they did. I wasn't there. That sign takes the glamour out of being a recovery diver real fast.
As for dogs on the scene, dogs (like us) have bad days too. Also many dogs are said to have a certain type of training, and may not. Don't know about this issue, wasn't there. A certified cadaver dog will eliminate anything but human decomposition. In most searches, a minimum of 3 dogs will be used and they will enter the area from different locations. There is a lot that we may never know.
The discussion here has certainly brought up a lot of good stuff, not so good stuff, perspectives, things we never knew before and what can happen. Let's just say this turns out to be a big hoax..... does it change the stuff we have talked about, or make the things about diving in enviroments we are not ready for any less right? If this ends up "didn't happen" remember, it sure could have and the things that were discussed have made everyone a little more in the know about the sport we love and do for fun.
A bank robbery, for example: The dog pulsl really hard to the next parking lot and behind a dumpster. Then he shows no interest at all. You cast him a round some more in other area's and he shows no interest. Put him back on the initial search area, he shows interest again, pulling hard to the same dumpster. That tells me a car, or means of conveyance was parked there and bad guy ain't there no more.
The initial evidence, and the vehicle and log books, and interviewing family, co-workers in PCB, dive shops, etc are all part of trying to rule out where he isn't. You can bet his finances, tax records, phone calls, everything is being looked at right now. The sheriff has a case that he can not afford to go unsolved. I said, somewhere before, this is a homicide investigation until proved otherwise. A homicide is any death that is caused from un-natural causes. If there is ever a question in a death, or what appears to be a death the investigation has to be done this way. You can never go back and get evidence once you leave it.
There is also a huge sign of a submerged body after say 3 or 4 days under water that is not cold, though 68 is cool, it is not cold. Search divers should have thrown a clue, that would have been overheard, that would be pretty much proof positive. Maybe they did. I wasn't there. That sign takes the glamour out of being a recovery diver real fast.
As for dogs on the scene, dogs (like us) have bad days too. Also many dogs are said to have a certain type of training, and may not. Don't know about this issue, wasn't there. A certified cadaver dog will eliminate anything but human decomposition. In most searches, a minimum of 3 dogs will be used and they will enter the area from different locations. There is a lot that we may never know.
The discussion here has certainly brought up a lot of good stuff, not so good stuff, perspectives, things we never knew before and what can happen. Let's just say this turns out to be a big hoax..... does it change the stuff we have talked about, or make the things about diving in enviroments we are not ready for any less right? If this ends up "didn't happen" remember, it sure could have and the things that were discussed have made everyone a little more in the know about the sport we love and do for fun.
Mark Michaud SELAUSAR
Contributor
mike_s
Contributor
It's my understanding that the cadaver dogs are trained to ignore other decomposing scents of other animals and only focus on human remains. (someone correct me if I'm incorrect).
I saw that recently posted over on CDF and wasn't sure why they posted such an old article. not sure.... I mean that's almost a week old now. (aug 23rd). It didn't really offer any new recent information.
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