General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Scooter in Vortex? WTF? Another example of what I am talking about.

Maybe to the gate and back Nothing past the gate for sure. Pat Watson did recover an open water diver around that time (1999-2001). I think that was in the permanently gated spot to the left of the gate. If it wasn't there it was in the small crevice just before there on the left as you are coming in. A few days passed and the victim was in a fetal postion, and the victim was stuck up by the ceiling. No scooter on that one.

 

[pattidives]

Unfortunately, putting plaques there will not discourage the divers who feel there skills are superior than others. This guy felt his skills were as good as those with training. The cave instructors, ow instructors and experieced cave divers, and the sign, the lock on the gate, warned him of the risks and possibility of death and yet that was not enough. Some people are way too confident in their skills and do not want to admit that something is beyond their capabilities. For people like me, my training and the sign are enough to keep me out of there. Actually, I don't even need the sign.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Perhaps the cave diving skills and hoaxing skills are on par with each other.

This comment above is totally uncalled for....

There is no hoax so give it a rest already. This contributes nothing to the intended purpose of discussing anything that has to do with anything that has happened at Vortex.

Just playing Devil's advocate here.......There is enough evidence for sure to investigate this as a missing diver / possible death by now.

In investigating something like this you also have to look at other options such as a staged hoax. If there is no body you have to rule out other options as well before you can suspend or close an investigation.

I have been taking reports and investigating things for over 19 years now. I also am a cave diver with a fair amount of dives in this cave and many others around the area.
Our department has had many K-9's and they get lots of use. I have spent many hours tracking with the handler after robberies, auto thefts with fleeing suspects, and so forth. Dogs are an amazing tool if used properly. I volunteer with a SAR team that has certified search dogs, certified cadaver dogs as well as certified water cadaver dogs. I can't say I know what every certification menas but they do. I am there to dive for them when needed and I operate a sidescan for them as well. I say this to assure you I don't make these statements lightly as I have a bit of experience in investigations, and underwater search issues.

What evidence is there that says this is not a hoax (anymore than it is a death in the cave) to make the statement to give it a rest? This discussion is about "what happened" although it is based on a missing diver who is supposed to be in the cave. I have seen, and heard, plenty that could take this investigation either way, with possibly no out come.

Having said that alot of what has been told to me will not leave me. I don;t know what is true, false or just heresay gossip. People have bounced thoughts off of me based on my experience and at the least, there is a lot that is completely unknown about this issue. There is one thing that is known, This Diver Is Unaccounted For. That is all.

There is definitely nothing simple and easy about this incident whether a death, or a hoax. It has left more questions than answers up til this point. Gonna be a tough one to clear for sure.

 

[Cave Diver]

What evidence is there that says this is not a hoax (anymore than it is a death in the cave) to make the statement to give it a rest? This discussion is about "what happened" although it is based on a missing diver who is supposed to be in the cave. I have seen, and heard, plenty that could take this investigation either way, with possibly no out come.

Having said that alot of what has been told to me will not leave me. I don;t know what is true, false or just heresay gossip. People have bounced thoughts off of me based on my experience and at the least, there is a lot that is completely unknown about this issue. There is one thing that is known, This Diver Is Unaccounted For. That is all.

There is definitely nothing simple and easy about this incident whether a death, or a hoax. It has left more questions than answers up til this point. Gonna be a tough one to clear for sure.

I have been contacted and in contact with numerous people as well. Some of the information and details I have been given has eventually come out through other channels. Some of it still remains unverified or unreported, so I've kept it to myself.

I've said this privately to a few people, but I'll say it publicly as well. I don't know if this is a hoax, or something else, but at this point, I for one will be very surprised if a body is found in that cave, because I don't believe it is there.

 

[boulderjohn]

Unfortunately, putting plaques there will not discourage the divers who feel there skills are superior than others. This guy felt his skills were as good as those with training. ... Some people are way too confident in their skills and do not want to admit that something is beyond their capabilities.

I agree. I think the problem is that such people feel that the warnings are for less skilled divers than they. It is a two-fold problem. They have a overblown view of their own skills, and they do not understand what it takes to do it safely.

I am not really being critical of the overblown sense of personal skill. I think it is bound to happen. If the only thing you have done is the kind of general diving done by the public, and you reach a point where you are realistically sure you are better than 90% of the ones you see when you go diving, that is how you are bound to feel. I thought I had a really good feel for buoyancy and trim until I started tech diving and suddenly realized what a beginner I truly was. That humbling moment was all I needed to realize I was not ready for cave training.

As far as not realizing the skills that are needed, how can they really know until they start the training itself? That is what I think the real benefit of a cavern diving class would be. It could take the diver who is really not ready and give him or her such a taste of what it takes that they truly understand the meaning of the grim reaper sign and what it takes to go past it safely.

 

[LiteHedded]

I have been contacted and in contact with numerous people as well. Some of the information and details I have been given has eventually come out through other channels. Some of it still remains unverified or unreported, so I've kept it to myself.

I've said this privately to a few people, but I'll say it publicly as well. I don't know if this is a hoax, or something else, but at this point, I for one will be very surprised if a body is found in that cave, because I don't believe it is there.

I'm with you.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

I have been contacted and in contact with numerous people as well. Some of the information and details I have been given has eventually come out through other channels. Some of it still remains unverified or unreported, so I've kept it to myself.

I've said this privately to a few people, but I'll say it publicly as well. I don't know if this is a hoax, or something else, but at this point, I for one will be very surprised if a body is found in that cave, because I don't believe it is there.

I agree. My point is that, there are always more than two sides to a story. I am not asking for anyone to "tell all" and I don't think you took it that way. I'm not saying he is in the cave or he has managed a huge hoax. I don't know at this point. I have my own thoughts, but they are my thoughts. My thoughts are more of a devil's advocate, let's look at all of it and if someone wants to rule out anything, tell us why they think that with more than just "I think". Folk want to believe this or that due to their perspectives and emotions. I, personally, think this is an incident that will play itself out to an end one way or another.

 

[vintagediver]

Is there another spring near Vortex? Is it possible this guy plannned to exit Vortex, not enter it?
Bottles staged for deco, but couldn't get passed the restriction?

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

Is there another spring near Vortex? Is it possible this guy plannned to exit Vortex, not enter it?
Bottles staged for deco, but couldn't get passed the restriction?

Nope, not to my knowledge.

 

[boulderjohn]

... I for one will be very surprised if a body is found in that cave, because I don't believe it is there.

And the argument for this is fairly persuasive. I find it hard to believe that divers of the caliber of those who have been searching did not find the body or clear evidence of his passing. The idea that someone with his skills could have gotten to those other extremely unsafe locations is hard to accept.