General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Divedoggie]

Let's see... deep... unstable... multiple long restrictions... silty (clay!)... and, to quote the fellow who laid the last few feet of line there, "impassible, impossible." I reckon a map of the system looks "relatively simple" in the comfort of my living room, but when in there it's another matter entirely.
Rick

I knew I was in trouble when I wrote that one.
Simple versus intricate. Not simple to dive.

As a spelunker, I've explored many caves. Some required squeezing thru 45 degree angle cracks for 40 feet before opening into a big room. Others required sliding through mud on my belly. Some requires setting an anchor and rappelling into a three level pit, like an elevator where you could get off at different floors.

The map and the videos presented of Vortex make it appear easier to find someone when compared to a cave with multiple side passages, pits, chimneys, rockfall and breakdown, etc.

 

[PfcAJ]

My point was that no matter if its diving, drinking, driving, whatever, in the end its the individuals responsibility to make the decision for themselves, no matter what someone else tells you is safe or not, or what rules and regulations are put into place.

Yea, it is their responsibility. Unfortunately, that's not how this works in real life.

There are more caves closed than are open because of people exercising their own free will. The checking of c-cards at places like Madison, Peacock, Ginnie and Vortex are all measures to try an reduce the amount of non-cave certified folk out of the caves. By taking a look at how many non certified people have died in caves, its pretty clear that "personal responsibility" just isn't enough.

Believe me, I wish it was, but it isn't.

 

[Divedoggie]

The hoax theory has been around for a while, although it was not emphasized publicly. I have trouble with it because if it is a hoax, it is not a a really good one, and there is a much easier and and more effective way to pull off a hoax than this.

Perhaps the cave diving skills and hoaxing skills are on par with each other.

The problem with planning a hoax like this in a cave you know well enough to be deep inside planting evidence is that you have to know that suspicions will be aroused after highly experienced divers are unable to find your body. If you want to have a hoax that leaves people sure you are dead, then you will have to find a way to explain the fact that there is no body.

That can be accomplished easily by telling friends for months that you are into deep ocean shore diving, setting personal records for depth with each dive. Park you car near a suitable site, leave some personal effects behind, and walk away. No one will question why a body lost at sea was not found.

I'm not a believer in the hoax theory. Its interesting to include it in discussions though.

The hoax scenario I floated a few posts back assumes that the "hoaxer" comes up with the idea spontaneously during an SI. Nothing is planned. Bottles are already staged, everything in place to actually do the dive, but then the idea comes to him and just he walks away.
Not quite as good as your lost at sea scenario.

 

[lurk-n-learn]

Perhaps the cave diving skills and hoaxing skills are on par with each other.

I'm not a believer in the hoax theory. Its interesting to include it in discussions though.

The hoax scenario I floated a few posts back assumes that the "hoaxer" comes up with the idea spontaneously during an SI. Nothing is planned. Bottles are already staged, everything in place to actually do the dive, but then the idea comes to him and just he walks away.
Not quite as good as your lost at sea scenario.

Perhaps the cave diving skills and hoaxing skills are on par with each other.

This comment above is totally uncalled for....

There is no hoax so give it a rest already. This contributes nothing to the intended purpose of discussing anything that has to do with anything that has happened at Vortex.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

My perception at least is that Vortex has never tried very hard to keep OW divers out of the overhead.

What do y'all think about Ginnies rule of no lights without cave/cavern certification (and a wristband to prove it) ? Seems a simple way to keep OW divers out of dark spooky places.

I don't know Vortex at all, but I believe it has been mentioned that one does not need to go through the property of the (business) Vortex at all to reach the cave. In other words, it's on a public waterway and there are other ways in.

Also, the person in this thread is supposed to have purposely circumvented the rules (even to the point of making his own lock for the gate), so it seems as though more rules would likely "punish" the respectful people and yet probably have no effect on those who will devise ways to get around them.

None of this is to say that I think a dive business should turn a blind eye to actions at their facility; but using this incident to judge them or to increase the very rules that the person was allegedly flouting anyway seems misplaced to me.

 

[Divedoggie]

Perhaps the cave diving skills and hoaxing skills are on par with each other.

This comment above is totally uncalled for....

There is no hoax so give it a rest already. This contributes nothing to the intended purpose of discussing anything that has to do with anything that has happened at Vortex.

I clearly stated that I don't believe there was a hoax.

In a theoretical discussion about a hoax, you are offended that I question someone's hoaxing skills?

There is a mystery here, and we have been discussing how to avoid future tragedies. Since the thread is no longer a part of the incident and accident section of this board and we the general public are interested in finding out what happened last week, it is not unreasonable to discuss a hoax.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I don't know Vortex at all, but I believe it has been mentioned that one does not need to go through the property of the (business) Vortex at all to reach the cave. In other words, it's on a public waterway and there are other ways in.

Also, the person in this thread is supposed to have purposely circumvented the rules (even to the point of making his own lock for the gate), so it seems as though more rules would likely "punish" the respectful people and yet probably have no effect on those who will devise ways to get around them.

None of this is to say that I think a dive business should turn a blind eye to actions at their facility; but using this incident to judge them or to increase the very rules that the person was allegedly flouting anyway seems misplaced to me.

This is a private facility, not a public waterway. The other access mentioned is the former owner who has lifetime access to half the spring for friends and family. With that mentioned they do not have access to a key to the gate in the cave.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

This is a private facility, not a public waterway. The other access mentioned is the former owner who has lifetime access to half the spring for friends and family. With that mentioned they do not have access to a key to the gate in the cave.

Thanks for clarifying that bit. I had misunderstood and thought that it could be accessed via waterway.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Thanks for clarifying that bit. I had misunderstood and thought that it could be accessed via waterway.

Your welcome. Ther are many springs here that have no public land access but you can access them VIA public waterways. They way this place has been explained I can see where you would think that.

 

[K_girl]

I think there is more that can be done to discourage unqualified divers from entering caves like this one. A plaque with names, age, dates of death, recovered or not recovered and certification levels of the divers who have died in the cave systems in the area. Its not enough to say that a lot of divers have died in the caves on the grim reaper sign. They need to really "feel" it. Also, additional space on the plaque to add more diver names for those who foolishlessly decide to go forward - as if to say "is this space going to hold your name next?" It doesn't have to be a plaque that is taken in and out to add names, you would add the names on plates that are anchored onto the plaque with existing anchors. If it saves the life of one foolish diver and/or the life of a would-be recovery diver - that would be a good thing.

Apparently, some divers think it is cool go to past the grim reaper sign - as if to say, yes, I am willing to try and cheat death. But would it be so cool to disregard the names of the dead who are calling to you from the plaque? That should have a stigma of sacrilege and it would be the cave-certified divers who create that stigma. So, yes, you could have side-mount tanks and wear a hard hat with underwater lights, but without the proper training, you don't have what it really takes to go past the names of the dead. You would be committing a sin.