General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Kevin Carlisle]

How many certified cave divers dive alone? Raise your hand. Yes...I see you in the back with your hand up. Yes, I see you...and you...and you. Thank you.
Happens all the time.

Now take a self taught, non-certified cave diver, newly acclimating to this cave, doing deeper penetrations, new to sidemount, diving solo and it is a recipe for a disaster.

I do, I do. And funny thing is those that were being called the best in this thread also dive solo. However in another thread they are called stupid. There is nothing wrong for those who do or don't. Just have to know your limits.

 

[alohagal]

I was just searching the net for anymore details on the search and came across this comment:

"Sources say that McDaniel was nowhere near cave diving status. Also, McDaniel was in alot of debt. It's a good possiblity that this is a hoax in an attempt to collect on some insurance benifits. Having authorities distracted by searching the cave.. Sounds like a diversion to me... "

Source: Vortex Springs: Still No Sign of Missing Cave-Diver

Has anyone heard if the search will continue or not?

This third hand hearsay posted on the Internet by someone just commenting is not worthy of repeating. In my humble opinion.

 

[ktomlinson]

Ya, I just dont believe that either. I'm sorry that he is, but I believe he is dead and in the cave. Not only have divers saw signs that he is in the cave(ok, conspiracy buffs would say they could have been planted), but I see very few reasons to fake your death. Maybe if the mob was after you or something...but not for debt. Jeeze they dont even lock you up for that anymore. And speculation about collecting insurance benefits dont make much sense to me. You would have to have an accomplice that was named beneficiary on said benefits, that could get the money to where you were without being noticed...sounds pretty easy to get busted doing that.

 

[mike_s]

Legislation of this kind would probably not be as effective as putting a gate and padlock on a cave entrance to keep divers out "without showing the PROPER training and certification to handle what they are about to do."

Legislation wouldn't do a thing...

this victim has already proved he'll break the chain hinge and install his own padlock. He also knew the training requirements of cave diving certification as he'd inquired about those at a local shop.


He knew the "rules". He knew the dangers.... yet you "can't fix stupid".

 

[Divedoggie]

The hoax theory doesn't jive with the type of person Ben was, as attested by his family and friends. If he had a history of dishonesty, very few friends, shady deals, etc., then there might be cause to speculate.

Now, if someone was a shady character, they might pull off a hoax like this:

A person plans a deep penetration dive in Vortex cave and stages bottles, posts the dive plan on Facebook, and then attemps to do the dive but cuts it short for an unspecified reason, he might not have any deco obligation and could simply ascend and exit the water. Maybe he intends to go back later, so the staged bottles are left in place and the gate is left open.
He unlocks the door to his car, checks his cell phone and gets a message that rocks his world. As he is standing there alone in the parking lot at night, it occurs to him that all he has to do is take the gear he was wearing and walk away. Just disappear. Everything is in place for people to assume that he perished.
He didn't plan anything. Just spontaneously came up with the idea and walks away. He could hide his gear somewhere, steal a car, go back and get the gear and disappear.

Not actually planning a hoax, in this case, could work out better than the most diabolically engineered scheme, because he truly didn't miss a thing.
--------------
Alas, that would make an incredible story, and I believe that the tiny possibility of that scenario is partially what has kept us all glued to this thread. The other riveting factors are the brash disregard for training, safety, authority, establishment, loved ones, etc. The dichotomy between the skilled "cave diver" image that was presented to his friends and family and the polar opposite image exhibited when evaluated by those who are actually trained and experienced.
The fact that he is still missing in a relatively simple cave system and small dive park gets the collective imagination spinning.
Hints from various posts that' "there is more to the story", and "key info will come out later," begs for speculation.
A request for more divers to continue searching adds a gut-wrenching possibility that a glory seaker will get himself into trouble and the cave will claim another victim.


I lost my best friend in a bizarre accident when I was 30. It was his own fault and it shouldn't ever have happened.
At the time, I would have come up with any scenario on earth to grasp on to the tiniest possibility that he was still alive. But alas, bad things do happen to good people. Especially when they push limits too far and make poor decisions. This is what happened to my best friend 18 years ago and what happened to Ben McDaniel last week.

 

[karstdvr]

Most cave systems to my knowledge do not have lights.

You are correct,most cave systems don't allow what Vortex does. In some senses Vortex has become one of the most dangerous cave systems even with the grate intact,because there has been so many fatalities in the "safe" zone of the cave.
I know that some of the agencies have tried to educate the Vortex management,but the accidents continue to happen. This is a pity at all,because there is a dive shop,and staff on sight that could reduce these incidents. I don't know what the victim's rationale was for choosing this site,other than being compelled get past the grate,and knowing how poor Vortex's over sight is.

 

[Rick Murchison]

...The fact that he is still missing in a relatively simple cave system...

Let's see... deep... unstable... multiple long restrictions... silty (clay!)... and, to quote the fellow who laid the last few feet of line there, "impassible, impossible." I reckon a map of the system looks "relatively simple" in the comfort of my living room, but when in there it's another matter entirely.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

...but the accidents continue to happen...

I'll not defend the lights in the cave at Vortex, because I want them off. But this is a reckless statement to be throwing out there and at the least an unfair, inaccurate indictment.
So, how 'bout you doing a little research to support your assessment, backing it up with dates and numbers? Then we can compare stats with other systems and see.
You may be surprised at what you find.

knowing how poor Vortex's over sight is.

Another unfair indictment. Vortex (the business) doesn't have exclusive control over Vortex (the spring). You cannot assign oversight if you don't first grant control.
Add the willful violation of the controls Vortex does have in place, and there's no reasonable way to fault Vortex management, with or without lights in the cave.
Rick

 

[karstdvr]

I'll not defend the lights in the cave at Vortex, because I want them off. But this is a reckless statement to be throwing out there and at the least an unfair, inaccurate indictment.
So, how 'bout you doing a little research to support your assessment, backing it up with dates and numbers? Then we can compare stats with other systems and see.
You may be surprised at what you find.
Another unfair indictment. Vortex (the business) doesn't have exclusive control over Vortex (the spring). You cannot assign oversight if you don't first grant control.
Add the willful violation of the controls Vortex does have in place, and there's no reasonable way to fault Vortex management, with or without lights in the cave.
Rick

Very hard to find the numbers and incidents because these weren't tracked by the IUCRR. I do know for a fact that this site was a concern by the agencies due to the high number of accidents relative to all the other sites. The statement is far from reckless,because the number of accidents are real,and all preventable. This is not an indictment of Vortex management,but for each accident that has occured,did any change in policy occur-NO. If you have a failed policy,and continue to follow the status quo,then you should expect negative outcomes. I think the recent incident was a "perfect storm" of events,with a combination of the mindset of the victim,and management issues.

 

[mike_s]

You are correct,most cave systems don't allow what Vortex does. In some senses Vortex has become one of the most dangerous cave systems even with the grate intact,because there has been so many fatalities in the "safe" zone of the cave.
.

uhmmm.... just how many fatalities has vortex had in the cave? (safe zone or otherwise)?)

to my knowledge, Vortex hasn't had a cave related death since about 2000 or 2001 when someone died due to a scooter related silt out.


The other recent death there was last year and the guy had a heart attack after an open water dive. It wasn't cave related.