General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Crush]

I don't know if this is a hoax, or something else, but at this point, I for one will be very surprised if a body is found in that cave, because I don't believe it is there.

Yeah, I guess that I am SLOW. The absence of many of the regular senior SB members on this thread indicates to me that I have been

It is interesting how those new members who suspected that something was afoul faded away quickly, and how new members who insisted that there was a body in the cave did not answer questions such as that posed to lurk-n-learn (see http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5445672-post268.html):

...do you believe that the scuba skills demonstrated in the video are representative of Ben's skills at the time of his alleged final dive? If yes, I very am surprised at how far he apparently made it into the system.​

I suspect that those with the best-informed opinions are those with the power to subpoena financial records...

 

[ktomlinson]

I wonder what piece of information has come out that makes some think he is not in the cave? In one of the first two A/I threads we were lead to believe that there was compelling evidence of him being in the cave (stage bottles, broken line)...what changed?

 

[Jax]

"Sounds like" the extraordinary capabilities of the searchers lead some to say, "If they cannot find him, he ain't in there."

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I wonder what piece of information has come out that makes some think he is not in the cave? In one of the first two A/I threads we were lead to believe that there was compelling evidence of him being in the cave (stage bottles, broken line)...what changed?

There is a ton of information that leads to the assumption that he isn't there. Its also information the general public doesn't have or need. Nuff said about it.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

I'm an OW diver and not a cave diver. What I'm wondering (and others have alluded to this as well) is, if the white-helmeted diver in the youtube video is indeed Ben M., could he have made it in far enough to get lodged somewhere others can't go, with the buoyancy skills displayed therein?

I mean, I know anything is possible, and nothing can be ruled out from what we readers know at this point; but I guess what I mean is would it be reasonable? Or are some of the unsearchable crannies and crevices fairly close to the gate? Or, do you think it's likely that one could make it way back in the cave even if one's buoyancy is were not that good? I don't know so that's why I'm asking.

 

[lurk-n-learn]

"Sounds like" the extraordinary capabilities of the searchers lead some to say, "If they cannot find him, he ain't in there."

Absolutely correct if I read this right.
Something extraordinary happened in there and he just has not been located yet. There is no person that can say without a doubt that every nano inch of that cave has been visualized appropriately enough to say 100% that he is not in there. The "best of the best" would not search farther due to the risk to them. They turned back before they got in trouble.
Time will tell, one way or the other....right?

 

[ktomlinson]

There is a ton of information that leads to the assumption that he isn't there. Its also information the general public doesn't have or need. Nuff said about it.

Are you saying that he is a terrorist? Witness protection program? Seriously though, way to stifle discussion man..what else can you expect other than questions to be asked when someone posts something like

I have been contacted and in contact with numerous people as well. Some of the information and details I have been given has eventually come out through other channels. Some of it still remains unverified or unreported, so I've kept it to myself.

I've said this privately to a few people, but I'll say it publicly as well. I don't know if this is a hoax, or something else, but at this point, I for one will be very surprised if a body is found in that cave, because I don't believe it is there.

 

[ucfdiver]

Are you saying that he is a terrorist? Witness protection program? Seriously though, way to stifle discussion man..what else can you expect other than questions to be asked when someone posts something like

You have no right to know up to the second information. You should be thankful you know as much as you do. If you want to know more, get involved with the community and you'll get stuff faster, otherwise be glad that these things really don't effect you.

 

[Crush]

I'm an OW diver and not a cave diver. What I'm wondering (and others have alluded to this as well) is, if the white-helmeted diver in the youtube video is indeed Ben M., could he have made it in far enough to get lodged somewhere others can't go, with the buoyancy skills displayed therein?

I believe that, if I were given an inexhaustible air supply (that battled narcosis) which was smaller than a flashlight and I had a wetsuit slicked down with Teflon I would have been able to make it in further than the experienced cave divers, given enough time. Perhaps one could even find a wetsuit slicked down with Teflon. However, I am still searching for an inexhaustible air supply (that battles narcosis) which is smaller than a flashlight.

 

[Cave Diver]

Is there another spring near Vortex? Is it possible this guy plannned to exit Vortex, not enter it?
Bottles staged for deco, but couldn't get passed the restriction?

I floated several theories along this line among people that know the area better than I do. I asked some pretty specific questions and played a few "what if?" scenarios. So far every question I've posed has been answered in way that precludes this possibility or makes it very, very remote at best.

Yeah, I guess that I am SLOW. The absence of many of the regular senior SB members on this thread indicates to me that I have been

There are other reasons for the absence of some of the members.

It is interesting how those new members who suspected that something was afoul faded away quickly, and how new members who insisted that there was a body in the cave did not answer questions such as that posed to lurk-n-learn (see http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5445672-post268.html):

Your link doesn't work, and I haven't had time to search to see what post you're referring to.

...do you believe that the scuba skills demonstrated in the video are representative of Ben's skills at the time of his alleged final dive? If yes, I very am surprised at how far he apparently made it into the system.​

Based on what I saw in that video I believe that he felt his skills were better than they actually were. Could they have improved in the interim? Yes. Is it likely he worked to improve skills that he felt were adequate? Not in my opinion.

I suspect that those with the best-informed opinions are those with the power to subpoena financial records...

Not necessarily.

I wonder what piece of information has come out that makes some think he is not in the cave? In one of the first two A/I threads we were lead to believe that there was compelling evidence of him being in the cave (stage bottles, broken line)...what changed?

There is no one piece. It's cumulative amount.

1) Initially I gave his skills the benefit of the doubt. After seeing a recent video of him in I'd be willing to bet he couldnt get into some places sidemount that I've been backmount. Even in an adrenaline fueled panic I find it unlikely he could get into places some of the best divers I know can't find him.

2) There are other possible explanations for the gear found in the cave.

3) No one has noted any unusual aquatic life behavior.

4) Conversations with other people have given me insight and perspective on other possibilities.

"Sounds like" the extraordinary capabilities of the searchers lead some to say, "If they cannot find him, he ain't in there."

That is a part of it.

I am an interested diver, but not a cave diver by any means. What I'm wondering (and others have alluded to this as well) is, if the white-helmeted diver in the youtube video is indeed Ben M., could he have made it in far enough to get lodged somewhere others can't go, with the buoyancy skills displayed therein?

I mean, I know anything is possible, and nothing can be ruled out from what we readers know at this point; but I guess what I mean is would it be reasonable? Or are some of the unsearchable crannies and crevices fairly close to the gate? Or, maybe it is possible to go way back in the cave even if one's buoyancy is not that good? I don't know so that's why I'm asking.

Not in my opinion based on what I saw in the video.