General Vortex Incident Discussion

[ameneon]

Not saying I agree on having a gate there at all. But if you first build one why put it so deep inside instead of having it where the overhead starts?

I guess most divers there know about the gate, couldn't it give some unqualified divers the impression that it is safe up to that point? This together with some remarks in the thread about some shop staff encouraging unqualified people to try the cave one might wonder if the first part of the cave have been used to try attract divers to vortex.

Wouldn't have helped much in this incident though.

 

[PfcAJ]

Some caves are considered "OW safe" by the "experts". Who these so called experts are, I'm not sure. They put a grate up to keep divers confined to the "OW Safe" area, and out of the cave. Some have lights and air bells and other shenanigans.

In reality, its a marketing thing. "Come see our 'OW Safe' cave!"...but there is no such thing an open water safe cave. Its first class BS. All of these places have had either fatalities or near misses by non-cave certified divers. But money talks.

 

[vladimir]

.....

 

[Dive-aholic]

I've been off the boards for a few days (working and teaching) and I haven't read through all the posts here and probably won't have time to. But I will respond to a few posts I did read.

As for Vortex not being a natural cave. It is a very natural cave. Sure, it has been made passable by dredging activity in there, but even if the dredging wasn't done, it would still be a cave. Look at Cypress. It can only be penetrated about 250' or so, and yet is a pretty high flow system. Beyond the restriction may be bigger cave, or it may be passage too small for a human to go through. But the water is getting out. The main difference is Vortex has a sandy, silty bottom and Cypress is mainly limestone where it pinches down.

As for body recoveries in caves, this would not be the first time a body was not recovered soon after the incident. There are a couple of cases of missing cave divers that were found in cave systems a few years after they went missing.

Can't they get that little chick who squeezed through that tiny hole on one of the previous videos that Cave Diver posted...Man, that was crazy! Not for the faint of heart, nor the claustrophobic.

Nothing against her, but that hole isn't all that small...

Yes, this is true ... on the other hand, a good cave instructor will task you to the point that you won't have to be told why diving beyond your limits isn't a good idea.

I have to wonder if a good lost line drill, or blind exit drill, might have caused this fellow to think about some of the risks involved. He seemed like a reasonably intelligent person ... just one who never probably put himself in a situation that would cause him to realize what bad things can happen to you in a cave. It's one thing to read about them ... it's something else entirely to put yourself in a situation where you have to deal with them.

Always better to do that in a class than have to figure it out on your own when the "lights go out" ...

That would be great if he had ever taken an overhead course. My cavern students actually get to experience a real silt out (not complete zero visibility since I still have to see them, but close enough to get the point across). But if someone hasn't taken a course, how are you going to put that person through a drill like that?

 

[BIGG_BUDD]

This?

YouTube - Ben McDaniel @ Vortex Springs

Is that the sound of his tank banging the bottom?

That video was bananas. Holy cow.

 

[Nitrodiverrr]

This?

YouTube - Ben McDaniel @ Vortex Springs

Is that the sound of his tank banging the bottom?

Dive instructors that I have dove with, have demonstrated better buoyancy skills than the video indicates that Ben had. Even if the video doesn't fairly represent his skills, it is an indication of behavior that IMHO is reckless considering his location.

One of the prior posts indicates that he was just finishing up or had recently completed training to be a profesional diver in either a dive master or instructor capacity. The following question arises from my having never taken this level of training. Do these couses pump up your ego / confidence in your diving skills to the point where you would feel confident to attempt the technical dives he did at vortex ? Doesn't the training he took teach students to only make dives to the difficulty level for which they are trained ? I wonder what the instructors at the school that he was just finishing up classes from feels about his diving activities ?

 

[Rick Murchison]

... I do know for a fact that this site was a concern by the agencies due to the high number of accidents relative to all the other sites...

Then how do you "know?" Please cite your sources.

did any change in policy occur-NO.

Following the last fatality (before this one) a rebar fence was constructed across the entrance to the ski-rope passage, where the mishap occured. That is a definite "YES" rather than your NO that you're so sure of.

...If you have a failed policy,and continue to follow the status quo,then you should expect negative outcomes. I think the recent incident was a "perfect storm" of events,with a combination of the mindset of the victim,and management issues.

What "management issues?" Please be precise. Throwing terms around like "failed policy" without citing the failure or the policy may sound fine in a TV soundbite, but if you're going to fling it around here be prepared to back it up with hard facts. Saying "it's too hard" doesn't cut it.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

Scooter in Vortex? WTF? Another example of what I am talking about.

Ahhhh... I begin to see where you're getting your information
If you believe there was a scooter caused silt-out and death in the Vortex cave circa 2000-2001 because someone posted it on the internet from their (inaccurate - maybe they're thinking of JB or Eagle's Nest, where scooters have - definitely in the case of JB and "probably" in the case of Eagle's Nest - played a role) recollections... well, that explains a lot.
Unless I've missed something there has never been a scooter related death in the Vortex cave. I've put some effort into a search before posting this.
Rick
PS -> -> -> @ karstdvr: I'm not taking aim at you specifically. You just happen to be the one who has posted what "everybody knows." Unfortunately, in this case, as is all too often the case, what "everybody knows"... isn't.

 

[Rick Murchison]

This is a private facility, not a public waterway. The other access mentioned is the former owner who has lifetime access to half the spring for friends and family. With that mentioned they do not have access to a key to the gate in the cave.

Let's clarify this a little more... the former owner has an "open invitation" for anyone who wants to use the chunk of his property that has "springfront" between his fence and his "private grounds" at his house to come on in and use it free of charge. Why he's doing this is part of a story best left to soap-opera fans, but relative to this mishap, the point is that there is public access to the spring through more than Vortex Spring, Inc., and Vortex Spring, Inc. has zero authority or control (well, they do deny them use of the Vortex Spring, Inc.'s bathrooms ) over swimmers and divers who take Doc up on his invite and enter the water from Doc's property.
Rick

 

[ucfdiver]

Then how do you "know?" Please cite your sources.

You do realize Kelly was the previous nss-cds president, right?

Not sure who you want him to cite when he says that he knows the agency did this or that...he's giving you first hand knowledge.