General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Rick Murchison]

You do realize Kelly was the previous nss-cds president, right?

Not sure who you want him to cite when he says that he knows the agency did this or that...he's giving you first hand knowledge.

Nope, didn't know that. What I do know is that there's a lot of finger-pointing and general broad-brush statements being made that aren't supported by hard data. It irritates me.
Surely if the CDS had reservations about Vortex they committed it to writing in a letter, or at least in the minutes??? That's the kind of cite I'm looking for. "Agency concern" that is restricted to the boardroom isn't agency concern, is it?
I was down there this weekend and got to take a look at Ben's handiwork at the gate. He had not replaced both chain hinges with his own, only the bottom one, and that one he'd buried in the sand so no one operating the gate in the normal manner would ever take notice of his modification. Clever. Too clever.
How would a (reasonable) change in Vortex policies or procedures have prevented this mishap?
Turn out the lights? I don't think so... (I'd still like to see the lights go away)
Maybe moving the gate to the entrance by the Grim Reaper? Don't think it would have stopped this guy...
I'm not associated with Vortex, Inc. in any way, I'm just a guy who favors fact. And in my opinion Vortex Spring, Inc., plays no part in this mishap.
Rick

 

[Cave Diver]

Are you saying that he is a terrorist? Witness protection program? Seriously though, way to stifle discussion man..what else can you expect other than questions to be asked when someone posts something like

Keep in mind, that post is my personal opinion based on the way I'm interpreting everything I've learned about this incident. It's likely that I've gotten more input than most posters on this thread who are simply reading along. It's possible that I have as much information as some people that have been participating. It's doubtful that I have more information than those actively involved in the investigation.

The conclusions I've drawn are my own, based on what I've heard and read and should not be taken as fact, merely my own personal speculation.

 

[Cave Diver]

I was down there this weekend and got to take a look at Ben's handiwork at the gate. He had not replaced both chain hinges with his own, only the bottom one, and that one he'd buried in the sand so no one operating the gate in the normal manner would ever take notice of his modification. Clever. Too clever.
Rick

Thanks for that clarification Rick.

 

[ucfdiver]

Nope, didn't know that. What I do know is that there's a lot of finger-pointing and general broad-brush statements being made that aren't supported by hard data. It irritates me.
Surely if the CDS had reservations about Vortex they committed it to writing in a letter, or at least in the minutes??? That's the kind of cite I'm looking for. "Agency concern" that is restricted to the boardroom isn't agency concern, is it?
I was down there this weekend and got to take a look at Ben's handiwork at the gate. He had not replaced both chain hinges with his own, only the bottom one, and that one he'd buried in the sand so no one operating the gate in the normal manner would ever take notice of his modification. Clever. Too clever.
Rick

So you'd like Kelly to post meeting notes of what he said, but when he posts a SB post about what he said, you don't believe it.

*sigh*

Not everything is in notes. However, if YOU would like to volunteer your time to write the meeting notes, I bet that the nss-cds would appreciate it. Here's a link to the current BOD you can contact to volunteer-
http://nsscds.org/test/drupal/staff

 

[diver 85]

(Little hx about me & this accident--:the 1st couple threads have been closed on this topic---I read thru the 1st 500 or so posts of the OT the moment almost it was closed----).....

My question: has the missing diver ever been located??....tia, I'll hang up & listen some more.....

 

[ucfdiver]

My question: has the missing diver ever been located??....tia, I'll hang up & listen some more.....

Not as of yet.

 

[mike_s]

to my knowledge, Vortex hasn't had a cave related death since about 2000 or 2001 when someone died due to a scooter related silt out.

.

Scooter in Vortex? WTF? Another example of what I am talking about.

Uncle Ricky and I have been researching the above and discussing via PM and have determined the 'scooter incident' was in Jackson Blue and not Vortex. Just FYI and wanted to correct the above statement I made earlier.

 

[pattidives]

Dive instructors that I have dove with, have demonstrated better buoyancy skills than the video indicates that Ben had. Even if the video doesn't fairly represent his skills, it is an indication of behavior that IMHO is reckless considering his location.

One of the prior posts indicates that he was just finishing up or had recently completed training to be a profesional diver in either a dive master or instructor capacity. The following question arises from my having never taken this level of training. Do these couses pump up your ego / confidence in your diving skills to the point where you would feel confident to attempt the technical dives he did at vortex ? Doesn't the training he took teach students to only make dives to the difficulty level for which they are trained ? I wonder what the instructors at the school that he was just finishing up classes from feels about his diving activities ?

He was going through a Dive Con course which is a Dive Master/A.I. combo, but was not finished with it. Before he ever started the course with another shop he had spoke to one of our instructors who refused to put him through the course due to his ego. The way he talked and everything he was telling the instructor he wanted to due was a red flag and the insrtuctor wanted no part of his training.
The professional courses that I teach and have been through are not designed to boost egos. However, you should be confident in your skills and abilities since it is a professional course. Your skills should be better than his was in the video. But you are still taught to not go beyond your training. In a professional course you are taught that you are a role model. Well he broke every rule as a professional canidate. His behavior was far from role model behavior and unfortunately was only a matter of time before it caught up to him.


Also the lights at Vortex are only on in the Piano Room, not leading up to it or any further. The lights are controlled by the former owner and not the current management.

 

[Rick Murchison]

So you'd like Kelly to post meeting notes of what he said, but when he posts a SB post about what he said, you don't believe it.

*sigh*

*sigh* yourself. To say - after a mishap - that Vortex has been a concern to the agencies in this thread on this board if "the agencies" haven't expressed that concern to Vortex or to the caving community... well, that's an indictment of the agencies, not Vortex. The question now is "who's dirty laundry is getting aired?" If the "concerns" are in writing and on record, then perhaps we can look at Vortex... if they aren't, the mirror's the place.

Not everything is in notes. However, if YOU would like to volunteer your time to write the meeting notes, I bet that the nss-cds would appreciate it. Here's a link to the current BOD you can contact to volunteer-
NSS-CDS Board of Directors and Staff | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section

You're closer
Rick

 

[ucfdiver]

*sigh* yourself. To say - after a mishap - that Vortex has been a concern to the agencies in this thread on this board if "the agencies" haven't expressed that concern to Vortex or to the caving community... well, that's an indictment of the agencies, not Vortex. The question now is "who's dirty laundry is getting aired?" If the "concerns" are in writing and on record, then perhaps we can look at Vortex... if they aren't, the mirror's the place.
You're closer
Rick

Something like 5 caves out of hundreds in FL have grates. I don't see why it's vortex's chore to go damaging the cave with metal bars.

You're closer
Rick

I plan to get a lot more involved with the WCDC this year now that I'm close. I think that organization is where I could do the greatest good.