General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Kevin Carlisle]

Have a Good watching Time
It very often happens in Morrison
YouTube - Avalanche and Firemen

That's not sand!!! That's called Mung. Its light and fluffy and what you see is what happens when somebody flutter kicks it or worse stands in it.. Worst case there is your viz is screwed up for a while. That crap won't bury anyone, try again.

 

[ScubaSteve]

More advertising?

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

No one has talked about the broken line lately.
How far back was the line broken? Are there any slide areas near there?

There's no sand slides where the line was broken. Although sand does pile up over time, and wash out... over time. Lines can break naturally, or from whoever was last in there, exitting in zero visibility.

I though someone said that was a misquote from Marson. I suppose you could PM him on Fb or cdf (marsonk) if you want to get it firsthand.

The biggest misquote of that article was the people... James Toland was back there and found the broken line. Marson waited for James where the cave wasn't restrictive.

I have to wonder about the whole sand slide scenario. I rode dirt bikes and a Banshee in the sand on the Oregon coast and in Idaho for years. Even on really long steep hill climbs when you are really throwing sand, the sand itself doesn't slide very quickly. I have also watch sand shifting off a cliff edge while diving in Cozumel. It also moves very slowly. Its not like liquid mud or snow. He would have had to be trapped and not moving to be buried under any kind of sand fall. Even then, I think it would just push him to the surface of the slide. He should have been close to neutral if he was moving at all. From the pics of his gear, it didn't look like he was carrying a large amount of extra weight. To be buried, he would have had to be pinned in one spot.

The sand moves quickly. Its been well document at Vortex that when the sand slides at the champagne restriction, it does so in a very small amount of time. Several divers have had to dig their way out from there.

On a macro level: Given the gear that he appears to have had, could he have gotten to or past the final restriction?

Simple answer. No, with the gear he had, he wouldnt have made it past(or up to) the final restriction. He would have had to drop tanks along the way.

 

[mike_s]

I suspect that if the family files suit, someone will have the resources to get good answers.

Who are the family going to sue? Vortex Springs Dive Shop/Operation?


Remember, Vortex Springs Dive Shop isn't the only one that has access to the springs.


In this case Ben was

1.) parking on Dockery's property.
2.) sneaking in
3.) Not paying the Vortex Dive Shop for admission
4.) Possibly stealing air/gas fills.


In My opinion, Vortex Springs (dive shop) had absolutely NOTHING to do with him going into the springs. Yet their name has been associated with this incident because they are the commercial operator there.

Yet they've done LOTS to support the recovery effort.


It would be a SHAME to see them get sued of someone else doing something STUPID and they weren't even involved in him diving there.

 

[shoredivr]

The sand moves quickly. Its been well document at Vortex that when the sand slides at the champagne restriction, it does so in a very small amount of time. Several divers have had to dig their way out from there.

As in, they were on one side of it and had to dig their way through to get out?

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Correct.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I have to wonder about the whole sand slide scenario. I rode dirt bikes and a Banshee in the sand on the Oregon coast and in Idaho for years. Even on really long steep hill climbs when you are really throwing sand, the sand itself doesn't slide very quickly. I have also watch sand shifting off a cliff edge while diving in Cozumel. It also moves very slowly. Its not like liquid mud or snow. He would have had to be trapped and not moving to be buried under any kind of sand fall. Even then, I think it would just push him to the surface of the slide. He should have been close to neutral if he was moving at all. From the pics of his gear, it didn't look like he was carrying a large amount of extra weight. To be buried, he would have had to be pinned in one spot.

Or maybe he was pulling himself out in a panic because he was low on/out of air and visibility was minimal to zero and he ran into the bottom of the sand hill causing it to avalanche down on him.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but anything is possible and not much can be ruled out at this time.

 

[ucfdiver]

Or maybe he was pulling himself out in a panic because he was low on/out of air and visibility was minimal to zero and he ran into the bottom of the sand hill causing it to avalanche down on him.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but anything is possible and not much can be ruled out at this time.

Wouldn't the smell become obvious?

 

[ItsBruce]

I'm not sure what they could file suit against since no one knows for sure where he is or what really happened.

Well, sure, but remember this is America.

I don't want to see anyone get sued and I sure would not take the plaintiff's case, but given some of the things I've seen attributed to the family by the media, you can just bet someone is going to get sued. Absent a body, I don't expect the suit will get very far, but based on having seen as many meritless lawsuits as I've seen, I expect someone will get sued.

 

[diverdoug1]

Does anyone here have access to the facebook postings Ben McDaniel put up about his dive plan? It would be interesting to see them.