General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Divedoggie]

I though someone said that was a misquote from Marson. I suppose you could PM him on Fb or cdf (marsonk) if you want to get it firsthand.

Its just a piece of the puzzle. If it was a mis-quote, then thats probably why no one has mentioned it lately. I don't think I'll pm him.

Another question though:
I often dive a sinkhole which is part of a known(inaccessible) cave system. The outflow is reported at 3000gpm. Barring big crowds, it usually crystal clear, but there are days when the water gets milky. We have always thought that was from slides or collapses in the system.

So here's the question:
If Ben were caught in a big enough slide to completely bury him, wouldn't the Vortex basin have been silty/cloudy the next day? If the water was clear, could we eliminate the idea that he was buried in a slide?

 

[vshearer]

I have to wonder about the whole sand slide scenario. I rode dirt bikes and a Banshee in the sand on the Oregon coast and in Idaho for years. Even on really long steep hill climbs when you are really throwing sand, the sand itself doesn't slide very quickly. I have also watch sand shifting off a cliff edge while diving in Cozumel. It also moves very slowly. Its not like liquid mud or snow..

My understanding is that in the caves it is the flow that actually holds the drift or banks up, and a change in flow or some other dynamic can bring it all down as it can become quite unstable. Just the diver blocking the restriction through which the flow eminates could trigger the slide. You would think it would show up in the basin, but he was diving at night from what I understand, so it could have cleared by morning I suppose. It also looks like it gets pretty stirred up each day when the swimmers get there.

 

[ucfdiver]

Its just a piece of the puzzle. If it was a mis-quote, then thats probably why no one has mentioned it lately. I don't think I'll pm him.

Another question though:
I often dive a sinkhole which is part of a known(inaccessible) cave system. The outflow is reported at 3000gpm. Barring big crowds, it usually crystal clear, but there are days when the water gets milky. We have always thought that was from slides or collapses in the system.

So here's the question:
If Ben were caught in a big enough slide to completely bury him, wouldn't the Vortex basin have been silty/cloudy the next day? If the water was clear, could we eliminate the idea that he was buried in a slide?

Wakulla Springs had a collapse that blitzed the viz for days. Jackson Blue has had them where it effected it a few hours. Other systems have had minor collapses and no real change of viz.

I think a lot depends on what falls where.

 

[KP3S]

Has any one looked inside those air bubble tanks? It would be so obvious but at this point anything is possible. Ben the newest Houdini?

 

[Scott L]

But let's play devil's advocate. Someone would then have to remove Ben's body, his tanks and gear without anyone noticing. Not likely.

Probably a few the those elite chain smoking GUE instructors. Other than their bad breath they are ghosts...

 

[BDSC]

I suspect that if the family files suit, someone will have the resources to get good answers.

I'm not sure what they could file suit against since no one knows for sure where he is or what really happened.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I suspect that if the family files suit, someone will have the resources to get good answers.

The only thing they can file is a missing person's report. There is nothing else. No body, no evidence of him. Nothing. They suspect that he may be there because of his truck and some bottles. But nothing to definitively tie him in that cave. So, all they have is a lot of wasted time and other divers risk.

 

[ScubaSteve]

So, all they have is a lot of wasted time and other divers risk.

This has not stopped them this far.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I have to wonder about the whole sand slide scenario. I rode dirt bikes and a Banshee in the sand on the Oregon coast and in Idaho for years. Even on really long steep hill climbs when you are really throwing sand, the sand itself doesn't slide very quickly. I have also watch sand shifting off a cliff edge while diving in Cozumel. It also moves very slowly. Its not like liquid mud or snow. He would have had to be trapped and not moving to be buried under any kind of sand fall. Even then, I think it would just push him to the surface of the slide. He should have been close to neutral if he was moving at all. From the pics of his gear, it didn't look like he was carrying a large amount of extra weight. To be buried, he would have had to be pinned in one spot.

I'm probably guilty of using the word "under" when "behind" is just as likely. You must also realize that in tight places it doesn't take much to turn a barely passable passage into an impassable passage. "The straw that broke the camel's back" applies.
Vortex has lots of sand that's always moving. A couple (I guess three now) months ago there was a major collapse of clay and sand that turned the entire basin into milk for a few days. There were probably some unstable areas remaining from that. As has already been noted, some of the passages have changed and narrowed since "the end of the line" was laid. No one knows when. Could Ben have disturbed an unstable area causing a minor slide or collapse that happened behind him that (1) trapped him, (2) erased all evidence of his having passed that way, and (3) made it impossible to get to him? I for one don't think that it's out of the question.
There are areas where moving sand may allow a look into some places where folks haven't yet been able to go, but given the structure of the cave I don't know if there's an adequate margin of safety to do it. I do know that it's all way, way beyond my capabilities, and I defer completely to the on-scene guys for any decisions along those lines.

 

[deepswim]

I have to wonder about the whole sand slide scenario. I rode dirt bikes and a Banshee in the sand on the Oregon coast and in Idaho for years. Even on really long steep hill climbs when you are really throwing sand, the sand itself doesn't slide very quickly. I have also watch sand shifting off a cliff edge while diving in Cozumel. It also moves very slowly. Its not like liquid mud or snow. He would have had to be trapped and not moving to be buried under any kind of sand fall. Even then, I think it would just push him to the surface of the slide. He should have been close to neutral if he was moving at all. From the pics of his gear, it didn't look like he was carrying a large amount of extra weight. To be buried, he would have had to be pinned in one spot.

Have a Good watching Time
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