Fins and manoeuvrability

[oldschoolto]

It really is fun to read this... It's like gun guys 9mm vs 10mm... Truckers Peterbilt vs Kenworth... Starbucks vs Dunkin donuts... Chevy vs Ford pick-ups... And the list goes on and on....

Jim...

 

[lowviz]

Quoting an earlier post of mine:

BTW, my intent is to build a minimalist "fun rig" so that I can either drift above the bottom while frog kicking or go exploring with whatever kick works best.

The real challenge is to accomplish this while using cold water exposure gear.

... nobody mentions the fact that if you have a completely cluttered and bad choice of BC with hoses sticking out everywhere, consoles hanging, big oversized wing or air cell, overweighted, etc. then the best fin in the world will still suck ...//... In my opinion the divers slipstream and configuration would need to be cleaned up and completely minimized before any top performance can be expected out of any fin.

Completely agree.

I can really feel the difference between my Jetfins and my Dive Rites when I'm in a wetsuit. I don't notice that same big difference in a drysuit.

So, I've already ordered a set of the fixed-blade Mako fins. Question is, can I streamline a cold-water rig enough to see the advantage of freedive fins? Enjoying the "research", we shall see.

 

[danvolker]

Quoting an earlier post of mine: The real challenge is to accomplish this while using cold water exposure gear.
Completely agree.

I can really feel the difference between my Jetfins and my Dive Rites when I'm in a wetsuit. I don't notice that same big difference in a drysuit.

So, I've already ordered a set of the fixed-blade Mako fins. Question is, can I streamline a cold-water rig enough to see the advantage of freedive fins? Enjoying the "research", we shall see.

5 mil semi dry wetsuit...Thermolution heated undergarment... = slick enough to freedive in....warm enough to dive 45 degree water in. You don't need no stinking Drysuit!!!

• Either this Thermalution Heated Undersuit -70M (Shortsleeve)

or

• Thermalution Red Grade | Heated Wetsuits

 

[TN Traveler]

Man, I have no desire to swim at 3.5 mph for an hour full tilt. I just have no desire. That's not fun to me. Diving to me is relaxing, even in a cave. And I can't see trying to backkick out of a rusty passage with a reel in hand with a 3 foot long pair of fins. Nothing about that seems like a good idea to me, but you've got a lot more experience than I do. Even swimming along with a slow as hell Gavin (192 fpm in the 2011 THB I think?)

Your last two paragraphs very adequately point out the issue at hand. You have fins that you think are the best for the type of diving YOU enjoy. I like seeing big things, seen a lot of them, but I just don't have the desire to put myself in a position where the entire dive is a substantial working dive. Different philosophies, I dive to relax, which coincidentally gets me enjoyment whether it's a shallow reef, halfway under Tulum, or a quarry with 2 feet of viz. If I want an adrenaline rush diving, I'll do the Doria on a single tank bounce dive on air. So in my case, where I will be balls deep underneath some rock or inside a ship that hasn't seen air for 75 years, your fin choices would not be the right choice.

You said it yourself, right club for the shot. That doesn't mean that the right club for you is the right club for everybody, which is where messages from guys like TN Traveler get lost in the static.

All I can say to that is that I have NEVER advocated that there is only ONE fin that everyone should use. I have said it over and over - "if you have a fin that works for you, fine. If you are wanting something that might be better, you might want to look at Force Fins." Then I have tried to explain why I find them better than other fins I have used (and I have used lots and lots). I do agree with Dan that people have just bought what the dive shops push and that there needs to be a way for people to try and variety before they buy - but that will never happen with the current dive equipment supply system. Is a $700 fin worth the difference over a $100 fin - that is an individual choice based on the value you put on the added performance. I admit, I personally think it is for me since it has kept me diving when I would have had to quit if I had not found Force Fins. But that is my take on it, all I can do is explain my reasoning, but your mileage may vary.

Look, when we dive in the Keys and my wife and I decide we are doing nothing but shallow reef dives, she dives in a pair of TUSA Expert Zooms (full foot) - I buy her a new pair every 2 years from LP since after that they fall apart. When we dive in someplace with current or where we are doing shore dives - Key Largo wrecks, Coz, Bonaire, etc - she dives Excellerating FFs because the splits don't cut it if the current kicks up. Nice thing about the FFs is she can wear them with different boots (depending on water temp) without needing different foot pockets/fins. She prefers the lighter weight of the TUSAs when they are appropriate. My kids (who dive infrequently) only get originals (bought used for <$100), since they do nothing but flutter kicks.

Again, I advocate for picking the fin that does the best for the way you dive - you just need to know there are alternatives that might fit your diving style better.

 

[REVAN]

REVAN, just want to point out that I didn't say anything about freedivers and physiological anything, I think you just forgot to change the name of who you were quoting.

Sorry, you are right. This forum worked a little different from what I'm used to for multiple quotes. I tried to hack it and messed it up. I've gone back and fixed it.

 

[lowviz]

5 mil semi dry wetsuit...Thermolution heated undergarment... = slick enough to freedive in....warm enough to dive 40 degree water in. You don't need no stinking Drysuit!!!

Well, that is pretty close to what I'm about to try. 5 mil Aqualung W/S, bought the Mako 5 mil neoprene socks, Freedom Plate, small cylinder. There is this lake in the mountains that I'm attempting to dive. Everything has to be carried up the mountain then back down.

I'm hoping that I can manage a frog kick over the silt and use the same fin to explore the rather large lake on a limited gas supply.

 

[REVAN]

"Plastic" is not a material but rather a family. So without being more specific your materials science statements are
unfortunately of very little use.

HDPE is the most common plastic used in diving fins. That is the plastic to which I am referring. It is a good tough and flexible plastic. It is also one of the lowest cost plastic materials available, but unfortunately for fin use, it has fairly poor energy return. It is good enough to get someone through dive cert, but IMO it is inferior to vulcanized natural rubber from a materials performance perspective (at least for how it is usually being used in contemporary scuba fin design).

BTW: Many ask why FF are so expensive. Instead of being made with HDPE, they are cast from urethane resins (if I'm remembering the names right). I've seen the stuff in composites shops (probably not the same stuff, but in the same family of materials). It's over $200 a gallon.

 

[danvolker]

Well, that is pretty close to what I'm about to try. 5 mil Aqualung W/S, bought the Mako 5 mil neoprene socks, Freedom Plate, small cylinder. There is this lake in the mountains that I'm attempting to dive. Everything has to be carried up the mountain then back down.

I'm hoping that I can manage a frog kick over the silt and use the same fin to explore the rather large lake on a limited gas supply.

The Blue Heron Bridge MArine Park ( which I dive in often enough with my wife Sandra) has extensive Muck diving.....the marine life in and around the muck is what makes this place world famous.
With frog kick and my DiveR's , I can equal non-silting ability of these fins to a cave instructor with jets...the makos should be excellent at this. They are also great at modified flutter, for when you don't have lateral room for a frog kick.

 

[lowviz]

...the makos should be excellent at this. They are also great at modified flutter, ...

Hadn't thought about that kick!

Now that speaks to the OP:

... to what extent manoeuvrability and precision depends on the model (size, form) of the fins? ...

Different fins may favor different techniques, getting harder and harder to compare.

-all the money I saved on fins is probably going to a heated vest. It never, ever ends...

 

[TN Traveler]

HDPE is the most common plastic used in diving fins. That is the plastic to which I am referring. It is a good tough and flexible plastic. It is also one of the lowest cost plastic materials available, but unfortunately for fin use, it has fairly poor energy return. It is good enough to get someone through dive cert, but IMO it is inferior to vulcanized natural rubber from a materials performance perspective (at least for how it is usually being used in contemporary scuba fin design).

BTW: Many ask why FF are so expensive. Instead of being made with HDPE, they are cast from urethane resins (if I'm remembering the names right). I've seen the stuff in composites shops (probably not the same stuff, but in the same family of materials). It's over $200 a gallon.

Nice to see somebody gets it. Quality urethane resins used in FFs run from about $75 a gallon (Originals) to about $400 (Tan Delta material). Plus there are additives to adjust the flex/rebound. Plus, since there are no "seconds" permitted in Tan Delta fins, each fin must be perfect (easy to see with a transparent fin, plus because of the higher stresses, any voids result in fin failure). So the reject rate is higher for these which becomes part of the cost structure.

Fins made from this material last for a long time - there are lots of 20+ year old Original FFs out there - they just don't break in normal use. If you ever look at the video of the Hockey Fins, you can bend them in half and they snap back to their original shape (I am sure every one ever produced will still be around long after we and our grandchildren are long gone )