Fins and manoeuvrability

[phoenix31tt]

i actually use my fins the least in high current sites... and yes you see i live in trinidad and tobago so i dive the ripping currents... we do them as drift dives

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I didn't read all the responses because I felt a migraine coming on if I continued, but I think I got a pretty good idea of how this thread has gone.
The one thing that nobody has mentioned, which is probably more than half of the equation in regards to efficiency, is the REST of the divers configuration. All the talk of Force/Freedive fins vs Jets/Turtles/F1's/ and all the rest of the fins mentioned, super duper fast and efficient fins are great, they maneuver great, and speeds are great, but not nobody mentions the fact that if you have a completely cluttered and bad choice of BC with hoses sticking out everywhere, consoles hanging, big oversized wing or air cell, overweighted, etc. then the best fin in the world will still suck trying to move all that mass and drag through the water. If you have a totally bloated and cluttered configuration then all a super powerfull and fast fin will do is wear you out. It would be like mounting a piece of plywood sideways onto a fast sports car and expecting there to be no wind drag. Something like that would eat up and immense amount of horsepower just to push through the air. Diving is no different.
Water is very dense and anything sticking out when top speeds are attempted will exponentially affect performance and force needed to overcome that drag on a very steep upward curve.
In my opinion the divers slipstream and configuration would need to be cleaned up and completely minimized before any top performance can be expected out of any fin.

However, if you're just laying around and slowly kicking looking at things, and following the "slower is better" philosophy then never mind, this post isn't about you.

 

[REVAN]

The real issue, which applies to all manufacturers, is even if they produce fins that are twice as good, does that performance increase justify the 3-5x cost increase....

I think many people have been jaded by the antics of scuba fin manufacturers. For decades, they have been repackaging the same stuff, often inferior quality stuff, with some dumb gimmick and then convince people to pay double or more for the product. Eventually, the customers learn that the $200 fins don't work any better than the $70 to $90 fins. Surprise, surprise, because it doesn't actually have any new technology that makes it better. It's just gimmicks.

Rubber fins,designed right for the material, are better than plastic fins. Rubber has better energy return. Yet, most fins sold use plastic. It is a cheaper material. The observation that many seem to have here is that the rubber fins that are basically clones of products introduced in the '70s are the better fins. I agree with that observation, and it makes sense because rubber has better energy return from it's deflected state.

Composite materials have significantly better energy return than rubber. They are also sturdy enough to accommodate fin blade designs that aren't supported by rubber materials. So, for a same reason that most of you have already observed for the superior performance of rubber fins, composites will be even better. Add to that the superior hydrodynamics made available with the long blade (something that the composites enable from the much higher modulus of elasticity and rupture strength) and it is getting better than what you are familiar with on two fronts. These are not gimmicks. This is real stuff that makes a difference. The composite materials and construction are expensive, but unlike the gimmicks it works and is money well spent if you are looking to improve swimming performance. BTW - I think fiberglass is the best composite material for fin blades, much better than plastic, and in many ways better than carbon fiber (especially in a scuba environment).

...And please, don't assume freedivers know more about physiology of the human body because they spend more on fins, thats just ridiculous....

That would be ridiculous, and no one is suggesting that. Good freedivers know more about diving physiology because understanding diving physiology is more critical to them for achieving their desired performance and their goals than it is for a scuba diver. For those same reasons they need to understand and use efficient swimming methods and technology, and that is why they sometimes buy $400 or $600 fins. They understand what fin tech actually works and they are willing to pay more for something that offers an improvement.

Since it is easier to learn from others than to make the discoveries yourself, I was suggesting that it may be worth evaluating some of the knowledge that has been gained by freedivers to see how that knowledge can be applied to scuba diving. For many divers, rubber fins are going to be good enough, and that's fine. Just know that the rubber fin is not the end of the story. Handmade composite fins may be expensive, but they are available, and it is still less expensive to buy them than it is to learn the manufacturing techniques and then make them yourself though a long painful process of unassisted self-discovery.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

As usual, Dan seems to take things to the extreme with respect to his examples and his enthusiasm. Some of the comments about diminishing marginal return (on expensive fins) do have relevance. I am a big fan of freedive fins for scuba and (obviously) for freediving.

I tend to lean more toward Dan's thinking: that good fins really ARE important for scuba. They are important for me anyway. They are more important than a lot of other pieces of gear. I dive a BP/W one weekend and a jacket BC the next and to be honest, the difference for me is pretty negligible (for single tank recreational diving).

As we have seen, people go freaking CRAZY over the wonderful benefits of a BP/W and the desirability of using the smallest possible wing - yet fins just aren't as sexy, I guess.

Scuba divers pay RIDICULOUS amounts for Air integrated computers or ones with remote sending units for their hoseless wonders, when a $200 nitrox hockey puck from Leisure Pro will provide 99% of the utility of a computer that costs 3 or 5 times as much. Again this is for recreational diving.

Hell you punch in the nitrox, come up when it says, slow down if it beeps or flashes and hang out at 20 feet for 4 minutes when your dive is over... You really don't need to have downloadable logs, instantaneous measurements of your consumption rate, temperature on the bottom and who knows what other MARGINALLY useful tidbits of information - that divers seem so willing to pay a lot of money to generate.

Don't even get me started on what some divers pay for the latest high end regulator, while I am quite happy with a 30-yr old design that allows me to dive deeper than a large majority of divers.

So some of the discussion about "better" fins not being worth the expense - because the marginal benefit is not worth the price - just seems contradictory to so many discussions on this board.

I found out a long time ago that a decent pair of freedive fins is going to push me through the water more efficiently, easier and a little faster than my old "scuba" fins. I don't wear freedive fins for the ability to sprint at high speed- I honestly think my old SP jet fins (if kicked with a super fast, LOW amplitude flutter kick) are about the fastest fins available. They are also uncomfortable as hell on my toes and if you sprint with them like that, you will become exhausted in 50 yards or so, but they are fast. However, scuba diving is VERY infrequently about swimming balls to the wall.

I dive normally in Palm Beach where we drift dive and also often have to tow a surface float. Contrary to what many people think, drift diving can require considerable kicking if you are not content to be planktonic. In this environment, a crappy pair of fins would be a HUGE negative for me. If you really want to SWIM in an efficient manner and enjoy an easier and longer dive, then the fins make a difference.

I have several pairs of freedive fins and I DO see the effects of diminishing return for scuba. I have rather expensive carbon fiber blades and also inexpensive plastic blades and also fiberglass blades which are somewhere in the middle of the cost spectrum (around $200). I generally choose the fiberglass blades for scuba.

If anyone is interested in experimenting with freedive fins, they can get a decent pair for less than $100 and can spend well over $300 if they want. They are clumsy and a pain on the boat, but the footpockets are often much more comfortable than scuba fins and they do help you swim better.

 

[lowviz]

DD, Thanks!

I see your post as supporting my suspicion that there is a netherworld between freediving and agency-based SCUBA. Nobody seems to go there. Fins are the poison pill. Sounds like fun!

Simply beautiful points made on DC's etc.

 

[JohnnyC]

REVAN, just want to point out that I didn't say anything about freedivers and physiological anything, I think you just forgot to change the name of who you were quoting.

 

[StefinSB]

"Plastic" is not a material but rather a family. So without being more specific your materials science statements are
unfortunately of very little use.

I think many people have been jaded by the antics of scuba fin manufacturers. For decades, they have been repackaging the same stuff, often inferior quality stuff, with some dumb gimmick and then convince people to pay double or more for the product. Eventually, the customers learn that the $200 fins don't work any better than the $70 to $90 fins. Surprise, surprise, because it doesn't actually have any new technology that makes it better. It's just gimmicks.

Rubber fins,designed right for the material, are better than plastic fins. Rubber has better energy return. Yet, most fins sold use plastic. It is a cheaper material. The observation that many seem to have here is that the rubber fins that are basically clones of products introduced in the '70s are the better fins. I agree with that observation, and it makes sense because rubber has better energy return from it's deflected state.

Composite materials have significantly better energy return than rubber. They are also sturdy enough to accommodate fin blade designs that aren't supported by rubber materials. So, for a same reason that most of you have already observed for the superior performance of rubber fins, composites will be even better. Add to that the superior hydrodynamics made available with the long blade (something that the composites enable from the much higher modulus of elasticity and rupture strength) and it is getting better than what you are familiar with on two fronts. These are not gimmicks. This is real stuff that makes a difference. The composite materials and construction are expensive, but unlike the gimmicks it works and is money well spent if you are looking to improve swimming performance. BTW - I think fiberglass is the best composite material for fin blades, much better than plastic, and in many ways better than carbon fiber (especially in a scuba environment).



That would be ridiculous, and no one is suggesting that. Good freedivers know more about diving physiology because understanding diving physiology is more critical to them for achieving their desired performance and their goals than it is for a scuba diver. For those same reasons they need to understand and use efficient swimming methods and technology, and that is why they sometimes buy $400 or $600 fins. They understand what fin tech actually works and they are willing to pay more for something that offers an improvement.

Since it is easier to learn from others than to make the discoveries yourself, I was suggesting that it may be worth evaluating some of the knowledge that has been gained by freedivers to see how that knowledge can be applied to scuba diving. For many divers, rubber fins are going to be good enough, and that's fine. Just know that the rubber fin is not the end of the story. Handmade composite fins may be expensive, but they are available, and it is still less expensive to buy them than it is to learn the manufacturing techniques and then make them yourself though a long painful process of unassisted self-discovery.

 

[Rusty Roo]

just going to wade in here.

why do we scuba dive? enjoyment, if it's not a career.

so will spending 2,3 times on a fin result in greater enjoyment?

we buy a nice fitting bcd, wetsuit/drysuit because having ill fitting gear detracts from the enjoyment.

would being able to swim that fit further or that bit fast which means you miss the nudibranches or other critters make the dive more enjoyable?

i think the scenario in which these benefit people ie. ripping current then penetration is quite niche. which they are so let's agree these are niche market fins?

 

[danvolker]

just going to wade in here.

why do we scuba dive? enjoyment, if it's not a career.

so will spending 2,3 times on a fin result in greater enjoyment?

we buy a nice fitting bcd, wetsuit/drysuit because having ill fitting gear detracts from the enjoyment.

would being able to swim that fit further or that bit fast which means you miss the nudibranches or other critters make the dive more enjoyable?

i think the scenario in which these benefit people ie. ripping current then penetration is quite niche. which they are so let's agree these are niche market fins?

Rusty....why would I want to waste $800 on a fancy dive computer, when I can wear a depth timer for $50 and free tables? With Nitrox, there is practically no scenario where the computer would be of value to me in Palm beach...yet...MOST divers spend big money on computers. Why do you think they do that? Or, why spend $900 on a regulator, when a $200 one is as safe or safer, and either one allows equivalent enjoyment of the dive sites you frequent?

In a place like Palm beach, with Drift diving, there are a few people from time to time that show up with macro lenses on their cameras, but most divers in Drift Dive spots are doing wide angle or the sightseeing equivalent--they are covering more area, trying to see more....that's what you do in drift diving. This would make the macro crowd the small "niche" market here
The BHB Marine Park is our macro place. When I go there with Sandra, there is nothing a macro diver can do with any of their fin choices, that I can't easily do with the big DiveR's. When the tide starts rushing out, and I see macro divers beginning to get blown around, and struggle to get themselves back to the beach ( after they stayed in a bit too long--into the tide shift), this current for someone wearing the DiveR's or Makos or other decent Freedive fins, is really not much of a current--it is pretty irrelevant.
As Eric mentioned....I gear to be slick in the water--no danglies or high drag stuff to allow the water to pull on. 18 pound lift wing and bp.
If I was wearing a big, billowy BC, and a Dry suit, it kills half of my fin advantage, and so I wont dive that way

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 08:20 AM ----------

i actually use my fins the least in high current sites... and yes you see i live in trinidad and tobago so i dive the ripping currents... we do them as drift dives

I spent a month diving Tobago when I was in college...some of the best diving I have ever enjoyed.
As to the drift dives...think of days with 100 foot vis...and the water collum is moving you along at about 3 mph....you are getting an awesome view of lots of new sights...and then out of the corner of your eye, you see something amazing about 80 feet directly to your right side, slowly moving upcurrent ( maybe its a big manta ray..maybe something even cooler..maybe just a Lobster hotel with 30 antennae poking out--and it is lobster season)....with freedive fins, it is easy to get to this place you saw with all the excitement...with jets or slipstreams, it is an experience you just won't get. I don't need my diveR fins every dive, or throughout a whole dive....I like to have them, for when they would allow an exponentially better dive, even if the time I used this on one dive only lasted 2 minutes--and then I was where I needed to be..


Lots of divers spend about an extra $200 on a octopus or 2nd reg in case a buddy needs to share air....You might go 2000 dives without this ever happening, but you buy it for the "just in case".

A significant number of divers have bought stuff like the Nautilus Lifeline as "just in case" gear....at huge costs....most will never use it.
While my "Just in case" scenario, is seeing something I want to get close to, when it is in a place traditional fins could not get me to....but freedive fins could....
I have a Just in Case scenario solution as good for me or better, than the Lifeline concept is for most divers. With the DiveR's, or the Excellerating Force fins, I could easily swim 6 or more miles to shore. I would need a compass also, obviously With the jets or slip streams, your legs would not last with the extreme inefficiency of these fins...If you decided frog kick was all you needed, you would be going so slow that tidal currents even 2 miles out, could easily keep you heading out to sea, even though you think you are swimming in.

 

[phoenix31tt]

and then out of the corner of your eye, you see something amazing about 80 feet directly to your right side, slowly moving upcurrent ( maybe its a big manta ray..maybe something even cooler..maybe just a Lobster hotel with 30 antennae poking out--and it is lobster season)....with freedive fins, it is easy to get to this place you saw with all the excitement...with jets or slipstreams, it is an experience you just won't get. I don't need my diveR fins every dive, or throughout a whole dive....I like to have them, for when they would allow an exponentially better dive, even if the time I used this on one dive only lasted 2 minutes--and then I was where I needed to be..

I can get it with my slips... It just takes more energy... And for that rare moment I wouldn't think damn I wish I had spent $200 more on a fin... There's not enough of those moments... And sadly 100ft vis is rare these days too lol


And with regards to people spending a lot of money on computers... They put in all these fancy features that people like or that makes things convenient (AI, color display, watch size etc etc). So it enhances the diving experience for some, and as the AI thread shows, some people like me still don't think the benefits justify the cost and would continue to dive a standard $250 computer and an spg...

It's all about justifiable cost to me...


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