Fins and manoeuvrability

[danvolker]

Another thought on the "Test Track" protocols that will help divers differentiate one fin from the next..things that will exaggerate the perceived differences, and show these in real performance differences:

1. Already mention large circle around a big shipwreck with constant 1 to 2mph current...real world fin potentials for dealing with up current, down current, and cross current
2. Tech penetrations, or for less experienced divers, structures that great precision in a fin will show better ease in moving around and being EXACTLY where the diver wants to be, at any given moment
3. At a place like the BHB Marine Park, it might be interesting to have the testers try each fin while using a Brownie kayak hose, pulling air from doubles that either I or one of our other buddies have, with the doubles divers on a scooter to prevent hours of this getting difficult ( for many different fin testers). Without a big floppy BC. or even a low profile wing--with just the air hose and essentially no drag, the biofeedback in what reactions the fins can produces, would be amplified enormously....Also forces diver to get perfectly weighted, which helps the entire review as well.
4. Frog kick over silt test run
5. Reef dive from fingers ( Eastern side offshore ledge) to far West side over Crown in between....large trek exactly across the dominant north current--this is important because "some" split fins get interrupted by sideways or cross current, and produce almost no propulsion in this scenario.
6. Pulling a tow float that is pulling really hard on a dive. Some fins will let you be a tractor when you need to be, and some do this really well...Other are terrible at this. You should know how your fins are at this. Some of us will end up having to tow a float or ball in challenging conditions--this lets you know what fins work best for this, and worse. Also relevant for a Rescue scenario, with the drag of another diver and a huge need to cover ground as fast as possible..and to make it all the way! I will say, that the big DiveR fins I use, allowed something that had not previously been seen by the instructor that I did my rescue course with on my way to my DM and instructor certs....For the part where I had to bring the unconscious diver up, and get him to shore fast, there was a large bow wave and the towing looked more like a jet ski was involved.....Just saying...fin choice is big for this...The new stiff version of Cresi Master Frogs would do this well, Excellerating Force fins would do it well....SP Jets would do it badly, because they would tire out the rescuer's quads so fast, they would not be able to make it to shore at a high pace for any decent distance.

---------- Post added September 30th, 2015 at 04:28 PM ----------

Also thinking it could be cool to show a video of each fin being kicked with ideal kick shape(demonstrated by divers that have perfected the perfect kick shapes for a given fin...some fins will have several ideal kick shapes, almost like "gears" in a car..) ..and if a SB tester desires, we could shoot video of them performing their kick shape with each fin.
There are many excellent fins that need a specific kick shape to work properly. ..sort of like racing skis...you need to have a certain coordinated motion to appreciate most racing models... versus the novice skis ( think splits) which are very forgiving, but dont really let you know when your kick shape is ideal.

 

[REVAN]

It is actually very nice to see some scuba divers taking an interest in fin tech. Personally, I agree with many of Dan's points about the importance of good fins and the imbalance in how many people seem to think there is an acceptable ceiling for fin cost vs. what they are willing to pay for other gear that has much less impact on a dive.

First and foremost, diving involves swimming. IMO, the swimming is far more important than the breathing part (i.e. - SCUBA), because I can always just freedive and have a great time and be safe doing it, even at 30 to 40 meters depth, as long as I have good mobility in the water. However, drop into 30 or 40 meters of water in scuba gear and no fins and it's downright dangerous. Even with a BC to get you back up to the surface, if you can't get back to the boat or to shore, you are still screwed.

This little example should highlight why mobility and swimming is actually the single MOST important aspect of diving and not something to be thrown in the closet of unimportant things that aren't worth paying more than $99 for a cheap solution. Freedivers hardly bat an eye at spending $400 to $600 on a pair of good performing fins and will often spend over $1K for a good monofin. Many of those freedivers know far more about the physiology of the human body under water and the discipline of diving than most tech divers. It is worth stopping to consider if they know something that many scuba divers are missing.

 

[phoenix31tt]

This little example should highlight why mobility and swimming is actually the single MOST important aspect of diving and not something to thrown in the closet of unimportant things that aren't worth paying more than $99 for a cheap solution. Freedivers hardly bat an eye at spending $400 to $600 on a pair of good performing fins and will often spend over $1K for a good monofin. Many of those freedivers know far more about the physiology of the human body under water and the discipline of diving than most tech divers. It is worth stopping to consider if they know something that many scuba divers are missing.

bleh why do i come in on this thread...

diminishing returns is where it's at, freedivers need better fins for better performance (whatever that may mean to them). So what does a $400 fin get you as a freediver? ok what does a 1k monofin get you that the $400 fin doesn't get you?

and i think that's the real point here, the price to performance ratio just isn't enough to warrant the spend. I dive with OMS slipstreams, got them for $69. Maybe the Dive Rite XT's perform better, but @ $69 i'm good, there is no reason for me to justify that spend, yet.

And please, don't assume freedivers know more about physiology of the human body because they spend more on fins, thats just ridiculous. They are two entirely different activities with two totally different objectives, and in scuba diving, spending $400 on a fin isn't necessary to achieve that objective

And i don't think anybody said swimming wasn't important... a big part of all scuba training is propulsion... we know how important it is... but you don't need expensive fins to meet propulsion requirements.

 

[danvolker]

bleh why do i come in on this thread...

diminishing returns is where it's at, freedivers need better fins for better performance (whatever that may mean to them). So what does a $400 fin get you as a freediver? ok what does a 1k monofin get you that the $400 fin doesn't get you?

and i think that's the real point here, the price to performance ratio just isn't enough to warrant the spend. I dive with OMS slipstreams, got them for $69. Maybe the Dive Rite XT's perform better, but @ $69 i'm good, there is no reason for me to justify that spend, yet.

And please, don't assume freedivers know more about physiology of the human body because they spend more on fins, thats just ridiculous. They are two entirely different activities with two totally different objectives, and in scuba diving, spending $400 on a fin isn't necessary to achieve that objective

And i don't think anybody said swimming wasn't important... a big part of all scuba training is propulsion... we know how important it is... but you don't need expensive fins to meet propulsion requirements.

I am still wondering how so many scuba divers that have been diving in $70 to $140 low tech scuba fins, have this a priori knowledge that justifies their pronouncements that THEY know that the $400 plus freediving fins are not twice as good???
Exactly how does a person know so much about something they have no experience or training with?

And keep in mind...the whole idea here...is to GIVE these scuba divers without this experience, actual first hand performance knowledge of many great fins, including freedive fins and composites........I don't get how this can be such a terrible thing???

---------- Post added September 30th, 2015 at 10:19 PM ----------

So what does a $400 fin get you as a freediver? ok what does a 1k monofin get you that the $400 fin doesn't get you?

and i think that's the real point here, the price to performance ratio just isn't enough to warrant the spend. I dive with OMS slipstreams, got them for $69. Maybe the Dive Rite XT's perform better, but @ $69 i'm good, there is no reason for me to justify that spend, yet.

.

Apologies to the SB members that read through all the posts and watched the videos...
Phoenix, and I say this respectfully, as I understand what you are saying, many others are actually thinking......since you clearly did not yet spend the time, please watch this video which will explain what can be done with a $1000 mono fin:

[video=youtube;aAxmFOLM3Ak]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAxmFOLM3Ak[/video]


What this shows, is a mono fin that makes doing a 60 foot drop on a reef, feel almost as easy as a 15 foot drop and return to surface.

And not just for a freediver.....If some of you "volunteered" for this, I am confident Ron and I could take a scuba diver with no freedive training, and in one day, have them doing things on a mono fin that they absolutely would have believed impossible for them before.
Put another way.....You--Phoenix, with this Dol-Fin on, could do MASSIVELY MORE than Phoenex could do with Oms Slipstreams on a breath hold dive......or, if wearing a scuba tank, and the OBJECTIVE was to cover distances that normally could only be covered by scooter divers.

 

[JohnnyC]

I am still wondering how so many scuba divers that have been diving in $70 to $140 low tech scuba fins, have this a priori knowledge that justifies their pronouncements that THEY know that the $400 plus freediving fins are not twice as good???

The real issue, which applies to all manufacturers, is even if they produce fins that are twice as good, does that performance increase justify the 3-5x cost increase. If I'm going to spend 3 times as much, I want 3 times the performance across the board. If I only want 3 times the performance in one area, does that justify the 3 times cost increase, or should it be less because I'm only getting that performance bonus in one set of performance standards. What if that bonus in one specific area is at the cost of performance in other areas? Is that singular performance standard enough to justify equal or diminished performance in other areas? Or what about a 5x increase in cost for a marginal performance increase? The disparity becomes even greater.

Let's say you have a base fin at $100 that does everything acceptably (let's just say it's an OMS Slipstream so everyone has a basis for comparison, and it's middle of the road price wise). Is it worth $500 for say only a 10% increase in performance? That's just assuming it does everything the base fin does, just 10% better. What if it does 10% better at a flutter kick, but 50% worse at a frog kick, is that acceptable? If scuba diving were a competition, I'm sure there would be competitors that would go for the diminishing cost/benefit because that 10% might be the difference between a win and a loss.

Obviously at this point we don't have enough data to make a quantifiable estimation. As such, I see no need to spend an exorbitant amount of money on a set of fins for marginal improvement, let alone a set of fins that may only be a marginal improvement in one single aspect.

Really, in the end, you're right, it would be a good thing for divers to have the opportunity to try all of these fins. The problem lies in that, unless a dive shop will do it, the number of people who are going to take money out of their pockets to go see you in Florida are pretty small. If the manufacturers do it, then as RJP said, it's not a great marketing idea.

 

[danvolker]

The real issue, which applies to all manufacturers, is even if they produce fins that are twice as good, does that performance increase justify the 3-5x cost increase. If I'm going to spend 3 times as much, I want 3 times the performance across the board. If I only want 3 times the performance in one area, does that justify the 3 times cost increase, or should it be less because I'm only getting that performance bonus in one set of performance standards. What if that bonus in one specific area is at the cost of performance in other areas? Is that singular performance standard enough to justify equal or diminished performance in other areas? Or what about a 5x increase in cost for a marginal performance increase? The disparity becomes even greater.

Let's say you have a base fin at $100 that does everything acceptably. Is it worth $500 for say only a 10% increase in performance? That's just assuming it does everything the base fin does, just 10% better. What if it does 10% better at a flutter kick, but 50% worse at a frog kick, is that acceptable? If scuba diving were a competition, I'm sure there would be competitors that would go for the diminishing cost/benefit because that 10% might be the difference between a win and a loss.

Obviously at this point we don't have enough data to make a quantifiable estimation. As such, I see no need to spend an exorbitant amount of money on a set of fins for marginal improvement, let alone a set of fins that may only be a marginal improvement in one single aspect.

I think this can be answered and agreed on without too much trouble....

Because of the way we move through water, if we are swimming at 1 mph, our deciding we want to swim mid water at 3 mph to go into a current, will not be a 3 times increase in power...it may be a great deal more than this.
In cycling, it is said that a bike racer going 21, has to nearly DOUBLE their horsepower to reach and hold 23 or 24 mph.....Let's say this again....double the horsepower to ride at 21, does not get you 42 mph..it gets you just a little bit faster.

On the bike, this extra 2mph could be the holy grail, because it can mean the difference between being able to stay with a big group of other cyclists, or mean not being able to, and being dropped--and having a terrible ride.

On a scuba dive, with currents, just 1 to 2 mph differences in comfortable cruising speed, can have dramatic impact on whether a dive at a site, on a given day, would be fun for you, very hard for you, or pretty much impossible for you.
3 mph differences ( in max speeds between one diver and another) make the scuba diver easily able to do things that only fish could do before ( or dolphins).

So are my $400 plus DiveR fins 4 times better than the OMS Slipsteams? I would say absolutely, because the DiveR fins will let me enjoy challenging conditions completely impossible with the slipstreams. They also allow me to bring a 5th buddy with us on one of our scooter dives--I can loan out my Gavin to one of you guys, for an hour long scooter dive, and I still get to dive with you, using the DiveR's instead of my Gavin. Again, this is a dive I could NOT do with the Slipstreams, so it is the value of diving, or not diving....So yes, the DiveR's are WORTH MORE than 4 times the price of the Slipstreams to me, and to many other divers that have actually tried MANY fins, including jets or Slipstreams, and hot technology fins like DiveR's, or Excellerating Force fins...

 

[JohnnyC]

I can loan out my Gavin to one of you guys, for an hour long scooter dive, and I still get to dive with you, using the DiveR's instead of my Gavin..

But here's the problem with this, you couldn't do that in a cave, or a wreck penetration. You perfectly illustrated a scenario where fins that are 4x the cost, are only beneficial in a limited set of circumstances. That's the point, they're NOT actually 4x better, otherwise they would be that good across the board. They're just that much better within a specific set of circumstances. Most divers don't want that, and the fins that are on the market, do sufficiently well at everything that spending 4x the price, just isn't worth the return.

Also, you must be in fantastic shape if you can swim all-out for an hour to keep up with a scooter. I'm not sure that most divers are in an equivalent state of health to be able to do the same. Of course I'm assuming a scooter cruising at around 150 fpm is probably what you're basing your comparison on, which actually isn't that fast in the scooter realm for cruising these days. Hell, that was optimum cruise speed back in the 2011 Tahoe Benchmark. There have been some big changes in the past couple years. You can always make the scooter go slower

 

[phoenix31tt]

I am still wondering how so many scuba divers that have been diving in $70 to $140 low tech scuba fins, have this a priori knowledge that justifies their pronouncements that THEY know that the $400 plus freediving fins are not twice as good???
Exactly how does a person know so much about something they have no experience or training with?

And keep in mind...the whole idea here...is to GIVE these scuba divers without this experience, actual first hand performance knowledge of many great fins, including freedive fins and composites........I don't get how this can be such a terrible thing???

---------- Post added September 30th, 2015 at 10:19 PM ----------




Apologies to the SB members that read through all the posts and watched the videos...
Phoenix, and I say this respectfully, as I understand what you are saying, many others are actually thinking......since you clearly did not yet spend the time, please watch this video which will explain what can be done with a $1000 mono fin:

[video=youtube;aAxmFOLM3Ak]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAxmFOLM3Ak[/video]


What this shows, is a mono fin that makes doing a 60 foot drop on a reef, feel almost as easy as a 15 foot drop and return to surface.

And not just for a freediver.....If some of you "volunteered" for this, I am confident Ron and I could take a scuba diver with no freedive training, and in one day, have them doing things on a mono fin that they absolutely would have believed impossible for them before.
Put another way.....You--Phoenix, with this Dol-Fin on, could do MASSIVELY MORE than Phoenex could do with Oms Slipstreams on a breath hold dive......or, if wearing a scuba tank, and the OBJECTIVE was to cover distances that normally could only be covered by scooter divers.

i know what it does... i'm saying it has no significant bearing where we don't use our fins to drop, or to go from point a to b in a hurry, and we ascend slowly... the only angle i'm coming from is that freedivers buy freediving fins because it makes their objective much easier... is 1k worth it to them yes... but 1k freediving fin (based on your video, which ive seen many times before, you've posted that vid a few times) isn't worth it to a scuba diver... alot of people use scooters in caves... will the mono help them achieve the same objective as a scooter... no.. because it will not do well in a cave system... so you see... different tools for different jobs... monofin has it's place of course as with "most" other tools

and i've never driven a maybach... is it a better vehicle than my toyota vehicles? sure, i really don't need to test drive it to know, but it's not gonna help me achieve my objective so much so that i can justify buying that over say something like a house... get the angle i'm coming from?

i.e. there are other things that help me achieve my objectives that i would rather spend more money on, when a <$200 fin does the job

 

[danvolker]

But here's the problem with this, you couldn't do that in a cave, or a wreck penetration. You perfectly illustrated a scenario where fins that are 4x the cost, are only beneficial in a limited set of circumstances. That's the point, they're NOT actually 4x better, otherwise they would be that good across the board. They're just that much better within a specific set of circumstances. Most divers don't want that, and the fins that are on the market, do sufficiently well at everything that spending 4x the price, just isn't worth the return.

Also, you must be in fantastic shape if you can swim all-out for an hour to keep up with a scooter. I'm not sure that most divers are in an equivalent state of health to be able to do the same. Of course I'm assuming a scooter cruising at around 150 fpm is probably what you're basing your comparison on, which actually isn't that fast in the scooter realm. You can always make the scooter go slower

I am in good Florida/no hills cycling shape....I can do 24 to 25 mph for an hour in a time trial.
On the other hand, I am carrying weight I should not be carrying.....though I have lost alot of it in the last month with this horrific raw vegan diet I am on for the next 2 months
The Gavins are running at full tilt, as is Matt Cain's Suex.
There are many cyclists and freedivers that could do this, with an oscillating dolphin kick and 18 pound lift wing with back plate and a hp120.
The DiveR fin makes it possible, as I could not come anywhere near this with Jets or slipstreams.
For many on SB, that don't cycle, they could still get a massive increase in what they could accomplish.

As to caves, no one dives caves in freedive fins...you just don't
As to shipwreck penetrations, or silty mud and macro dives, I can do this better with my DiveR's than I could with Jets or Slipstreams--the precision is amazing..the frog kick is something you need to be frog kicking next to...or trying it first hand.. You are not likely to believe something like this from a post on SB.

For stupidly technical wreck penetrations...stuff maybe less than 1% of all SB members might consider....I have Jet fins, and Excellerating Force fins...and so it is like a Golf bag with the right club, for the shot. I will change the instant I think there is a better club, for the shot...so to speak


I don't see how my scenarios I outlined are "limited"...the best dive sites in the world, are high current sites...this is where the best marine life concentrations are found.
The Still water locations, where little benefit would accrue, are places I can't be bothered to waste my time in....I have been to MANY of them....I have been diving heavily since 1972. But it is not fair for me to say what is more fun...what I like, or what still water divers like.....So my ideas are best suited to divers like me, that like the explosive marine life found at high current dive destinations. A nice short list is Palm beach, Fiji, the Mona Passage off Mona Island, Puerto rico, some little known dive sites off Tobago that are mind blowing.....there are many others.

If you have no high current dives near you with massing marine like...who is really being limited?

 

[JohnnyC]

I am in good Florida/no hills cycling shape....I can do 24 to 25 mph for an hour in a time trial.
On the other hand, I am carrying weight I should not be carrying.....though I have lost alot of it in the last month with this horrific raw vegan diet I am on for the next 2 months
The Gavins are running at full tilt, as is Matt Cain's Suex.
There are many cyclists and freedivers that could do this, with an oscillating dolphin kick and 18 pound lift wing with back plate and a hp120.
The DiveR fin makes it possible, as I could not come anywhere near this with Jets or slipstreams.
For many on SB, that don't cycle, they could still get a massive increase in what they could accomplish.

As to caves, no one dives caves in freedive fins...you just don't
As to shipwreck penetrations, or silty mud and macro dives, I can do this better with my DiveR's than I could with Jets or Slipstreams--the precision is amazing..the frog kick is something you need to be frog kicking next to...or trying it first hand.. You are not likely to believe something like this from a post on SB.

For stupidly technical wreck penetrations...stuff maybe less than 1% of all SB members might consider....I have Jet fins, and Excellerating Force fins...and so it is like a Golf bag with the right club, for the shot. I will change the instant I think there is a better club, for the shot...so to speak


I don't see how my scenarios I outlined are "limited"...the best dive sites in the world, are high current sites...this is where the best marine life concentrations are found.
The Still water locations, where little benefit would accrue, are places I can't be bothered to waste my time in....I have been to MANY of them....I have been diving heavily since 1972. But it is not fair for me to say what is more fun...what I like, or what still water divers like.....So my ideas are best suited to divers like me, that like the explosive marine life found at high current dive destinations. A nice short list is Palm beach, Fiji, the Mona Passage off Mona Island, Puerto rico, some little known dive sites off Tobago that are mind blowing.....there are many others.

If you have no high current dives near you with massing marine like...who is really being limited?

Man, I have no desire to swim at 3.5 mph for an hour full tilt. I just have no desire. That's not fun to me. Diving to me is relaxing, even in a cave. And I can't see trying to backkick out of a rusty passage with a reel in hand with a 3 foot long pair of fins. Nothing about that seems like a good idea to me, but you've got a lot more experience than I do. Even swimming along with a slow as hell Gavin (192 fpm in the 2011 THB I think?)

Your last two paragraphs very adequately point out the issue at hand. You have fins that you think are the best for the type of diving YOU enjoy. I like seeing big things, seen a lot of them, but I just don't have the desire to put myself in a position where the entire dive is a substantial working dive. Different philosophies, I dive to relax, which coincidentally gets me enjoyment whether it's a shallow reef, halfway under Tulum, or a quarry with 2 feet of viz. If I want an adrenaline rush diving, I'll do the Doria on a single tank bounce dive on air. So in my case, where I will be balls deep underneath some rock or inside a ship that hasn't seen air for 75 years, your fin choices would not be the right choice.

You said it yourself, right club for the shot. That doesn't mean that the right club for you is the right club for everybody, which is where messages from guys like TN Traveler get lost in the static.