Fins and manoeuvrability

[danvolker]

Ah, but there's a problem with the idea... and the manufacturers might know this.

Sneaky marketing insider information: Demos are often a bad idea, particularly for premium-priced products, and in many cases hurt sales and brand perception. You see, people who have spent $400 on fins are FAR more likely to "feel" $400 worth of difference than people who haven't yet opened their wallet.

Right now you've got a situation where the only people that can speak of the virtue of such fins are those that are financially - and emotionally - invested in them. They will disproportionately skew more positive than negative because of a psychological self-preservation mechanism. (This is not just about $400 fins, but about anything with a high potential for buyers remorse.) If demo pairs of $400 fins were widely available, for every one owner's voice touting them as being great... there would be a thousand voices saying "I tried them and couldn't tell what the big deal was."

From a marketing communications standpoint it's far better to have one person telling the other thousand "I use them and they are great... and you can't question their greatness because you've never tried them."

This is likely very true as far as the statistics of marketing....marketing for "products in general". I would expect that "most products" consumers have to choose from, are not so different in quality or performance.
Where performance is radically different, demos make sense for the brands with such a major advantage.

For years, the Dive Industry has managed to eliminate any real performance skew of fins....and to most fin performance sounds like more hype...most don't even believe fin performance is relevant to their needs as a diver.
It's a level of brainwashing that boggles the mind. Perhaps because the biggest manufactures at DEMA, the ones that make deals with shops about which OTHER brands they can sell in their shops...and as to how much of the main MFG sales volume must be sold per month....perhaps the shops have been forced to help convince the customer that the big mfg fins are really great, and that any fin in the shop they like the looks of, is going to be all they need....that performance issues between these and other brands that exist in the world, are not really relevant to scuba divers.

I'd like to turn this nonsense upside down, and ruin this corrupt thinking forever.

I have already chatted with a few of the really GOOD fin companies....most of which would be BAD for most shops that are COMPELLED by there Dealership agreements to sell the fins they have permission to sell.
The fin makers I chatted with, like my idea, and I think there is a good chance I may have a free demo program showing up in the near future.
If anyone has some fin makes they believe should be included for all the A-B comparisons....please add them in this thread....This would be fins like : Quattros and other Primary fin brands dive stores are pushed by their agreements to sell...Even when many of the shops are aware these are not the best performing fins.

 

[RJP]

This would be fins like : Quattros and other Primary fin brands dive stores are pushed by their agreements to sell...Even when many of the shops are aware these are not the best performing fins.

Yeah, sort of like when a Ford dealer tries to sell Ford vehicles to unsuspecting customers. They should be pushing Porsche and Ferrari and Tesla vehicles... since everyone knows they are better than Fords.

:cool2:

 

[stuartv]

If anyone has some fin makes they believe should be included for all the A-B comparisons....please add them in this thread....

Atomic Blades. I don't have much experience with different fins, but I like my Atomic Blades over my Hollis F1s for power and for tech kicks. They just aren't negative enough to use with my dry suit.

 

[Diving Dubai]

You see, people who have spent $400 on fins are FAR more likely to "feel" $400 worth of difference than people who haven't yet opened their wallet.[/QUOTE

How true this is:

My friend, a serious Audiophile whose spend on equipment made even me wince (even the needle on his record player was over $5000) Brought a new set of leads for his speakers.

Now Audio is about the most subjective subject there is. However he knew he could hear the difference with these new leads that cost over $100 per foot per lead.

I wasn't convinced so brought in an oscilloscope to measure the difference between the old and the new.

There was a marked difference with the new being better, except only in the frequencies outside the human hearing range

We psychologically justify our purchases to ourselves.

For the record I use Dive Rite XT fins - Had a go with Jets couldn't tell the difference - perhaps I should of had one Jet and one XT on different feet during the dive, swapping over halfway though to get the proper feel :headscratch:

 

[gkrane]

Hey Dan can you advise me on who the really good fin companies are that you chatted with so I can do some research. I am an avid researcher when it comes to new purchases so I would like to start early before my next dive trip. Not interested at all in Freediving fins right now as I know what they can do, they just don't suit my purposes.

---------- Post added September 30th, 2015 at 08:54 AM ----------

Atomic Blades. I don't have much experience with different fins, but I like my Atomic Blades over my Hollis F1s for power and for tech kicks. They just aren't negative enough to use with my dry suit.

I have always liked Atomic products and use them. What differences do you notice with blades and F1's?

 

[stuartv]

I have always liked Atomic products and use them. What differences do you notice with blades and F1's?

I feel like I get more thrust from the Atomics, whether I'm doing scissor kicks, flutter kicks, or frog kicks. Helicopters seem a little easier with the Atomics. I suck at back kicks, but both fins seem about the same, for me, for back kicks.

 

[danvolker]

Yeah, sort of like when a Ford dealer tries to sell Ford vehicles to unsuspecting customers. They should be pushing Porsche and Ferrari and Tesla vehicles... since everyone knows they are better than Fords.

:cool2:

I suppose this was meant in fun, but the analogy is no where close to what I am talking about....
Maybe if Sears was mostly a good brand for most of what they sell, and Sears salesman at the big dept stores felt compelled to push the Sears brand of Air conditioner, even though it was actually the worst functioning equipment in the entire Sears lineup ( ***this is NOT based on Sears in any real sense...they might have great air conditioners--I just needed an analogy that was closer)

As to Ford..I drive a Ford Raptor, and think Ford is a great company. Most people don't use a terribly strong "performance" evaluation in cars, unless they are buying Sports cars or Sports Trucks....Even so, the "Test Drive" is a given for just about anyone, and in buying a sports car, some dealerships will even have some roads where you can really pull some G's around turns, and do some very fast accellerations.

The fins I want to get the "masses" of scuba divers to try, will NOT all be freedive fins and Force Fins.....I don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet....but there are some excellent fins that look very much like traditional scuba fins....but they are made with much better technology...Cressi Master Frogs come to mind as one of these. There are several others.

An example of pathetic technology in fins, pushed by a big gear maker, would be Head and Mares. You almost have to feel sorry for a shop that has sales quotas to Mares, and is forced to sell some of the horrific offerings they have.
Some of the Head and Mares rental gear we used for the 104 kids in Project Seahorse, was so poorly constructed that just in the course of 1 month of use, many of the fins were falling apart---blades breaking at key points, and the propulsion potential of these fins was ridiculously poor. That does not mean Mares can not put out a good fin--or buy a good fin and brand it as Mares....the problem is when a shop has to sell lots of junk to make their quotas. The problem gets worse, when the shop customers ares led to believe if it is for sale in the shop, it is going to perform just fine.

The fins should be used in a demo, prior to purchase. And divers should care about performance, except, many don't.

---------- Post added September 30th, 2015 at 10:59 AM ----------

Hey Dan can you advise me on who the really good fin companies are that you chatted with so I can do some research. I am an avid researcher when it comes to new purchases so I would like to start early before my next dive trip. Not interested at all in Freediving fins right now as I know what they can do, they just don't suit my purposes.

---------- Post added September 30th, 2015 at 08:54 AM ----------

When you come diving with me in Boynton Beach, or near the BHB Marine Park in an area great as a "test track" for fins, I will have over a dozen very good fins for you to try.....and I will not be "pushing" you into freedive models or Force Fins either.

There are too many trolls on Scubaboard, with no intention of ever actually trying the fins, so there is only so much I will engage here until I know a person is a REAL PERSON, not a sock puppet.
The SB members that really want to demo a large variety of fins, will find a way to dive here in South Fl.

 

[gkrane]

It might be a bit before I can get to Boyton Beach. I checked out the Cressi Master Frogs and with a very quick read they seem to get very mixed reviews. I am going to start a new thread for these new fins as seems have gotten sidetracked as to the original OP request of this one.

 

[danvolker]

It might be a bit before I can get to Boyton Beach. I checked out the Cressi Master Frogs and with a very quick read they seem to get very mixed reviews. I am going to start a new thread for these new fins as seems have gotten sidetracked as to the original OP request of this one.

If you plan on looking at the Master frog..start here: Cressi Scuba Diving Fins Ara EBS professional scuba diving equipment gear computer regulator octopus wetsuit mask fin spearfishing

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

gkrane, I posted my experience with the Master Frogs on your new thread. I think these are about the best all around scuba fin ever made, more details in the other thread. The new ARA Dan links to are the "updated" model with a bungee strap but I have not used those.

Thanks to Dan (and his patience), I am going to use a pair of Exelerating Force Fins (rubber, not Tan Delta) and compare them to the Master Frogs on my next ocean dives, maybe this weekend. Will report back. Was pretty impressed with the Force Fins in the pool, but that was not a real test in full gear.