Fins and manoeuvrability

[Eric Sedletzky]

Quoting an earlier post of mine: The real challenge is to accomplish this while using cold water exposure gear.
Completely agree.

I can really feel the difference between my Jetfins and my Dive Rites when I'm in a wetsuit. I don't notice that same big difference in a drysuit.

So, I've already ordered a set of the fixed-blade Mako fins. Question is, can I streamline a cold-water rig enough to see the advantage of freedive fins? Enjoying the "research", we shall see.

You mentioned being able to accomplish a minimalist configuration in cold water gear. What do you consider cold?
Here in Norcal the ocean temps are generally around 48-50 degrees on average. This year they are up in the low 60's due to the El Nino, but I've seen them as low as 42 degrees years ago during an Alaskan cold water upwelling in early spring.
All my current diving I do in a wetsuit. Right now I'm using a 7mm Yazbeck freediving suit. It's a skin-in beaver tail style with attached hood and no zippers. It's one of those camo ones with a spear loading pad on the chest. It's about the best flexibility/warmth ratio I've seen or can come up with so far for an off-the-rack suit. But it's not for really deep diving though because it crushes easily being that it's designed to be flexible.
With that Freedom Plate you'll be getting tomorrow you should be able to get a pretty good slick configuration. You'll see that the tank will drop down nicely in-between your shoulder blades and won't be sitting up on top of the blades, so you won't have that 'hiked up' look like doubles plates give you. If you look at anybody from the side profile with a conventional plate, even if they 'think' they're laying flat in perfect trim, the front of the tank/rig is always sitting up at an angle. This is because it's sitting up on top of the shoulder blades and sitting down at the lower back. The tank needs to be down up front and up in the back to maintain alignment with the axis of the body. You will find that your new plate will help with this.
If you make a point to eliminate any hanging or dangling gear, use a small wing if you can, and lose the snorkel if you don't need it (You may already know all this - I'm just saying) but consciously get everything tucked in, or just eliminate it if it's really not needed, and you'll be ready for some really fast fins.
Another true test of drag is to see how far you can glide after a propulsion stroke. Many times with a high drag configuration the diver moves forward while kicking, but then stops suddenly when no propulsion is used. The bulky billowing mass will stop the glide dead.
So to answer your questions about seeing if freediving fins will help, yes they will but only after you have "slimmed" down your profile enough that you won't kill yourself trying to get through the water. Think of slipsrteam as making the smallest hole through the water you can by narrowing everything down and making everything as smooth as possible. This includes getting the tank as close as possible - every inch counts.
If you really want to experience a level above anything else while on scuba, which rivals the speed and ease usually only achievable freediving then try diving without any BC. Yes...get your weighting correct and you can dive with no BC and have a tank on that plate only. The difference is that water will channel down around the tank where the wing would normally go. I found that this is a vital water stream area that needs to be kept open *if* you are wanting to achieve the very top speeds. I am looking at getting a Dol-fin and from what I understand this is the fastest fin to date blowing away anything else on the market. I would absolutely use this fin with no BC because I think ANY unnecessary drag would sharply affect it's performance. The only reason I want this fin is just for the thrill of going fast and covering lots of ground, and the entertainment of watching the ground move by at incredible speeds....and, knowing that I am the one providing the propulsion, not some $5000 scooter, no other reason. I want the underwater fighter jet effect, and from the videos I've seen I think this is the only fin that can achieve this. I'm willing to pay for it simply because it has no competition and I want it. To me it's worth every penny. I plan to use it in Lake Tahoe.


P.S. If you need any help figuring out the lacing on the plate just email me at my yahoo address.

Thanks

 

[gkrane]

Dan what are the DiveR's? Dive Rite Xt's? Ah, ok your talking about the freediving fins.

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 11:13 AM ----------

What are the differences between a Carbon Fiber $260 Mako Freediving fin and a $700 DiveR Carbon Fiber Freediving fin other than the fancy graphic?

 

[lowviz]

You mentioned being able to accomplish a minimalist configuration in cold water gear. What do you consider cold?
Here in Norcal the ocean temps are generally around 48-50 degrees on average.

Same, anything below 40 starts to hurt. That is drysuit and really good undergarments territory.

use a small wing if you can

I have a 32 for starters. Next one may be a zero.

If you really want to experience a level above anything else while on scuba, which rivals the speed and ease usually only achievable freediving then try diving without any BC. Yes...get your weighting correct and you can dive with no BC and have a tank on that plate only.

One of my favorite spots to just dive and relax happens to be shallow enough that I would need a shovel to get deep enough to even begin to crush my suit. Exactly what I was thinking. Next adventure already waiting in the wings…

The difference is that water will channel down around the tank where the wing would normally go. I found that this is a vital water stream area that needs to be kept open *if* you are wanting to achieve the very top speeds.

There is rock solid science that supports your observation: “Drag force is proportional to the velocity for a laminar flow and the squared velocity for a turbulent flow.”

The only reason I want this fin is just for the thrill of going fast and covering lots of ground, and the entertainment of watching the ground move by at incredible speeds....and, knowing that I am the one providing the propulsion, not some $5000 scooter, no other reason. …//… To me it's worth every penny.

That is a good example of one of the many reasons why I love diving, always something new and exciting that you can throw yourself against…

P.S. If you need any help figuring out the lacing on the plate just email me at my yahoo address.

Thanks, I’ll do that.

 

[REVAN]

Dan what are the DiveR's? Dive Rite Xt's? Ah, ok your talking about the freediving fins.

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 11:13 AM ----------

What are the differences between a Carbon Fiber $260 Mako Freediving fin and a $700 DiveR Carbon Fiber Freediving fin other than the fancy graphic?

The design of the fin blade is more important than the material it is made from. It is certainly possible to make something out of carbon fiber that will suck for swimming. As I've said previously, I think fiberglass actually has advantages over carbon fiber as a material for fin blade construction. However, it needs to be of a good design and of appropriate stiffness to match the user to actually be a 'good' fin.

The hard thing is that you can't see the design details that matter, because they are buried in the layup of the composite laminate. The flex-ratio along the length of the fin blade is very important to how well a fin is going to work, and that is usually controlled by the tapering of laminates along the length of the fin blade, and sometimes varying the weave and warp angle of the reinforcing material.

I've dove fiberglass DiveRs before and was VERY impressed with them. I know that Dan loves his DiveRs also, but I havn't tried his personal fins. They look a bit different from the ones I used in Hawaii. I have never used Makos before, so can't really say anything about them one way or the other. If anyone is interested in researching freediving fins, you may want to check out the forums at DeeperBlue.com. That is where all the freedivers hang out and debate the virtues of one freediving fin over another.

FYI: All the rage regarding long-blade fins in the freedive community these days seems to be for the Moana fins. I've seen some interesting double flex patterns in photographs that suggest an element of reality to the claims. But again, I have not used them myself. I'm more of a monofin guy when it comes to freediving.

 

[dmaziuk]

I am am probably wasting my time responding since you have no interest in diving Force Fins.

I'm not, I believe I'll get more oomph out of a streamlined reg set for the same money, but the part where his sizing is off by one is useful information.

 

[danvolker]

Dan what are the DiveR's? Dive Rite Xt's? Ah, ok your talking about the freediving fins.

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 11:13 AM ----------

What are the differences between a Carbon Fiber $260 Mako Freediving fin and a $700 DiveR Carbon Fiber Freediving fin other than the fancy graphic?

I will be buying a Mako very soon for the purposes of this demo concept...
I would not expect the differences to be huge between the $260 Mako and the top DiveR....Some of the difference in price will come from entirely different business models....Mako cuts out the dive shop, so the customer does not have to have a wholesale price doubled or more....which happens with Scubapro fins, OMS, and most others including DiveR's. I don't know that it would be fair for me to speculate what the differences would be yet.....One thing about the diveR yellow blades I use, is that they are much stiffer ( they are one of the stiffer blades DiveR makes) than any other freedive fins I have seen....This is advantageous to me, as a cyclist, I tend to turn most fins into spaghetti noodles, and this does not happen with the DiveR's ... People I have been in the water with, that were diving in Makos, seemed to be using the soft version of what Mako puts out...I have not seen anyone using their stiff version blades.

Quite a few Freedive fin companies put out a soft, medium and stiff version blade ( some with many more variations), so you can exactly match the needs for a dive, to your fins.
For example, a freediver in an 8 hour long freedive competition, will need soft blades to swim non-stop for 6 to 8 hours. On the other hand, a guy doing drops on a 100 foot ledge for an hour or two, would probably want a much stiffer blade, as his muscles will not be tired after only an hour or two, with the stiff blade.

Variations in stiffness, also play to how muscular a diver is, how big their aerobic capacity is, how fast they recover from an anaerobic effort....the size of the diver--huge person or tiny person....fin stiffness really SHOULD be optimized for each person's body size and type, as well as their intended mission--or their normal mission
Typical Scuba fins fail to do ANY of this. Scuba fins tend to be the low tech, "one fin design is right for everyone" type of engineering defectiveness.


I think you will be very happy with the Mako's. For most divers that try my DiveR's, and like them, they are going to decide on something like Mako or Cressi, because they are great fins, and the pricing is excellent.
DiveR's are going after the Lamborghini market of freedivers. In car speak....better than a Corvette or Mustang in mountains or curvy roads....but unless you have a very special "mission" with this car, few are going to decide the Lambo is worth the extra dough.....Some will...and it's cool when you see them
Same for Mako versus DiveR, in all probability.... But the Slipsream and the Jetfins, they are NOT like Corvettes or Shelby Mustangs..the Slips and the Jets are more like the 3 wheeled 2 cycle motorcycle trucks some workers drive around inn Itally...

Kind of slow and low tech, but they can turn on a dime, and maneuver in much smaller areas than can be done with the super cars
Kind of cool to have one, if you have a place to keep it Just like with my Jetfins

 

[mdb]

This endless circle jerk has the same posts by the same zealots every time.

There are, however; some new divers who add some reason and interesting comments.

Of course, fins are such a basic part of any form of diving, this sort of thread will continue.

 

[JohnnyC]

All I can say to that is that I have NEVER advocated that there is only ONE fin that everyone should use. I have said it over and over - "if you have a fin that works for you, fine. If you are wanting something that might be better, you might want to look at Force Fins." Then I have tried to explain why I find them better than other fins I have used (and I have used lots and lots). I do agree with Dan that people have just bought what the dive shops push and that there needs to be a way for people to try and variety before they buy - but that will never happen with the current dive equipment supply system. Is a $700 fin worth the difference over a $100 fin - that is an individual choice based on the value you put on the added performance. I admit, I personally think it is for me since it has kept me diving when I would have had to quit if I had not found Force Fins. But that is my take on it, all I can do is explain my reasoning, but your mileage may vary.

Again, I advocate for picking the fin that does the best for the way you dive - you just need to know there are alternatives that might fit your diving style better.

You're right, not ONE fin, but ONE manufacturer.

Your MO pretty much goes like this:
Diver: I've tried Force Fins, several types, don't like them. Don't think they're worth the cost. Didn't do anything for me.
TN: You're wrong! Force Fins are better at everything! You don't know what you're talking about. If you don't know that Force Fins are the best you're an idiot. You must suck as a diver if you can't see the awe-inspiring potential of the Force Fin.


You're pushy because you're all up on Bob over his fin design. Hell, half the time you try and be his voice on the forums. Deny it if you want, but I'm pretty sure even Dan would agree that your rabid enthusiasm and pushy behavior are par for the course. You're way to emotionally involved in a piece of material, and I guarantee that Bob has lost sales because of it, as I personally know 3 local divers who refuse because of "The owner's mouthpiece on scubaboard. Anybody that needs to whine like that is making up for something." That's a direct quote.

Me personally? I've tried Force Fins, 3 different styles, and none of them did anything for me, and certainly not what they paid for them. So if there are better fins for me, they sure as hell aren't Force Fins.

 

[tursiops]

I don't see how my scenarios I outlined are "limited"...the best dive sites in the world, are high current sites...this is where the best marine life concentrations are found.

Demonstrably untrue, which I'm sure you know, but typical of your obsession with your local dive sites. You need to get out more!

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 02:33 PM ----------

There is rock solid science that supports your observation: “Drag force is proportional to the velocity for a laminar flow and the squared velocity for a turbulent flow.”

Only applicable if you think you might actually have laminar flow....which is highly unlikely over a scuba diver's body and equipment. The science is correct, but its application here is not.

 

[danvolker]

Demonstrably untrue, which I'm sure you know, but typical of your obsession with your local dive sites. You need to get out more!

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 02:33 PM ----------

If only my local dive sites included Fiji, the Mona Passage and Tobago !
But I am obsessed with enjoying diving...for both myself and others.

I'm sure you are aware that with strong currents, fish concentrate around structure to a much greater degree than they do with still water.
So the more of this I can get, the better!

Places where two major ocean currents intersect, can be even more exciting.

I had no plan to disparage diving without currents, but when some posters begin suggesting that diving in currents is a limited or niche only form of diving, I am going to take issue with that