Fins and manoeuvrability

[gkrane]

This endless circle jerk has the same posts by the same zealots every time.

There are, however; some new divers who add some reason and interesting comments.

Of course, fins are such a basic part of any form of diving, this sort of thread will continue.

After I got neck deep in this thread I reviewed some of the older material and it does seem like some of the same players are "emotionally all in" on certain brands. I really would like to demo a lot of these different fins but I am not going to fly to Florida to do it. for that cost I could just buy all of the fins in question.

 

[TN Traveler]

You're right, not ONE fin, but ONE manufacturer.

Your MO pretty much goes like this:
Diver: I've tried Force Fins, several types, don't like them. Don't think they're worth the cost. Didn't do anything for me.
TN: You're wrong! Force Fins are better at everything! You don't know what you're talking about. If you don't know that Force Fins are the best you're an idiot. You must suck as a diver if you can't see the awe-inspiring potential of the Force Fin.


You're pushy because you're all up on Bob over his fin design. Hell, half the time you try and be his voice on the forums. Deny it if you want, but I'm pretty sure even Dan would agree that your rabid enthusiasm and pushy behavior are par for the course. You're way to emotionally involved in a piece of material, and I guarantee that Bob has lost sales because of it, as I personally know 3 local divers who refuse because of "The owner's mouthpiece on scubaboard. Anybody that needs to whine like that is making up for something." That's a direct quote.

Me personally? I've tried Force Fins, 3 different styles, and none of them did anything for me, and certainly not what they paid for them. So if there are better fins for me, they sure as hell aren't Force Fins.

You claim to have tried 3 different styles - which ones? What type of diving? I can't comment on them without specifics.

As far as your characterization of my response - your interpretation is less than accurate. I always ask what type of diving your do, what kicks you use and under what conditions. Again, if you just say "they don't work for me", I will challenge you because the in most cases, people have not really tried them and are just wanting to complain about the cost.

As far as your assertion that "3 local divers will not even try them because of my statements" - their loss and I doubt they were never, ever potential customers - probably satisfied with their <$100 fins. If you are so narrow minded to discount a product because of the way someone rubs you on an internet forum; you are just looking for an excuse not to try it.

And yes, I think Bob does have a vastly superior fin design - both in the design and the materials and the execution. So I will try and carry the message. I know Bob well and I know that he is occupied with other things at this time - so I try and provide information that he would, if he was available. If the information was not coming, some people would complain about that - they have to complain/disparage/$%#@ on something (I guess to make up for something they lack).

 

[dmaziuk]

Only applicable if you think you might actually have laminar flow....which is highly unlikely over a scuba diver's body and equipment. The science is correct, but its application here is not.

Hmm... I read it as in "proportional to the velocity for laminar flow but velocity squared for turbulent". I.e. having turbulent flow over your hoses and wing flaps is kinda the point: you won't get much out of a better fin unless you get rid of those things first.

 

[lowviz]

... Only applicable if you think you might actually have laminar flow....which is highly unlikely over a scuba diver's body and equipment. The science is correct, but its application here is not.

I wouldn't expect either fully laminar or fully turbulent flow, probably something somewhere in between. Just pointing out that reducing turbulence is a good thing.

I would think that reducing one's cross-section and trying to streamline what you are wearing would be beneficial. How beneficial? Don't know yet.

 

[dmaziuk]

I wouldn't expect either fully laminar or fully turbulent flow, probably something somewhere in between. Just pointing out that reducing turbulence is a good thing. I would think that reducing one's cross-section and trying to streamline what you are wearing would be beneficial. How beneficial? Don't know yet.

I can tell you that swimming laps in the pool the difference between speedos and boardshorts is noticeable when pushing off the wall and especially when swimming breaststroke. In fact, you can buy "floppy" swim trunks specifically to add drag to make you push harder during practice. I expect 90% (?) of the divers out there would almost never need that level of fine-tuning -- but wouldn't it be nice to have that if you can.

 

[gkrane]

If I were Bob Evans I would make it a priority to ask TN Traveller to cool it on behalf of my company. Since you speak on his "behalf" you make his operation look extremely unprofessional. I guess it is somewhat clear as to who the apollo guy was referring to as a zealot.

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 03:14 PM ----------

You're right, not ONE fin, but ONE manufacturer.

Your MO pretty much goes like this:
Diver: I've tried Force Fins, several types, don't like them. Don't think they're worth the cost. Didn't do anything for me.
TN: You're wrong! Force Fins are better at everything! You don't know what you're talking about. If you don't know that Force Fins are the best you're an idiot. You must suck as a diver if you can't see the awe-inspiring potential of the Force Fin.


You're pushy because you're all up on Bob over his fin design. Hell, half the time you try and be his voice on the forums. Deny it if you want, but I'm pretty sure even Dan would agree that your rabid enthusiasm and pushy behavior are par for the course. You're way to emotionally involved in a piece of material, and I guarantee that Bob has lost sales because of it, as I personally know 3 local divers who refuse because of "The owner's mouthpiece on scubaboard. Anybody that needs to whine like that is making up for something." That's a direct quote.

Me personally? I've tried Force Fins, 3 different styles, and none of them did anything for me, and certainly not what they paid for them. So if there are better fins for me, they sure as hell aren't Force Fins.

You forgot to mention the insinuations that if we aren't sold on FF we should just use our low budget fins since we couldn't afford the quality anyway.

 

[TN Traveler]

If I were Bob Evans I would make it a priority to ask TN Traveller to cool it on behalf of my company. Since you speak on his "behalf" you make his operation look extremely unprofessional. I guess it is somewhat clear as to who the apollo guy was referring to as a zealot.

---------- Post added October 1st, 2015 at 03:14 PM ----------



You forgot to mention the insinuations that if we aren't sold on FF we should just use our low budget fins since we couldn't afford the quality anyway.

Look mdb has been as much of a zealot as anyone when it comes to his product(s). He just has not had a dog in this fight since his fins have not been part of the conversation. I have not heard ANYONE on this thread even mention them as an option.

And what I have said is "If your fins are working for you, then I can understand you not being interested in spending/investing in a high price product" - just be honest and say, "I can't afford them or I don't think they would be good value for the type of diving I do." I have always stressed that you should consider if a fin works for your diving needs but that often people are not aware that Force Fins are made in many models (and price points) and that indicating that you tried them once and they did not work for you, just might be because you did not try the "proper" model (sort of like trying to drive a Lotus Elan across an unpaved mountain road - a Jeep works much better).

 

[Freewillow]

First and foremost, diving involves swimming. IMO, the swimming is far more important than the breathing part (i.e. - SCUBA),

Are you REALLY a scuba diver with some experience to say this? UNREAL................................. Some dives require very little finning if you master a lot of other skills

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I was PM'ed by several people that the ugliness would be raised and personal attacks would be made and here it is. What ever you do, they said, don't bad mouth the Force Fins. Those guys are in a cult. They will hunt you down and say nasty things about you.

Good tactic, for children. If you can't convince them with facts, then make personal attacks. That will convince them. Tell them they are stupid. Tell them because you don't think like I do they have a "low level of awarness"...lol. Well, there is a lot of really smart people on this board and we see through your puny attempt. Look, be a big boy. If you haven't got any facts that can prove your statements then move on. You love those fins. I don't. I can live with being an "X" diver and suffering from a low level of finesse.

You are cracking me up with your lack of expertise and your obfuscation.

Your "stated benefits" only qualify as your opinion. Which is basically worthless.

I am certainly not too dense to "comprehend" a double blind, objective, scientific study. When you can show me one of those: then, I will bow to the Excellerating force fin god. Until then I suggest you stick to your opinion and the few "facts" that you have.. Stay away from personal attacks. It is beneath the status of this forum and hopefully not the way that you want to be viewed.

There have been some studies about fin performance.
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/3936/12841609.pdf?sequence=1

i have done some on my own too over the years. I will see whether I still have them, and post the results later.

SeaRat

 

[REVAN]

Are you REALLY a scuba diver with some experience to say this? UNREAL................................. Some dives require very little finning if you master a lot of other skills

Freewillow; I see you label yourself as IANTD Nitrox. I am also IANTD Nitrox as well as Deep Air; so yes, I am really a scuba diver. You should be well aware that you cannot get through their cert without swimming your ass off (unless things have really changed in the past 15 years). I was in a small class of just 3 divers. I was the only one to make it. The others couldn't pass all the swimming drills.

I swim on every dive. In fact, I enjoy it because I have good fins and a clean scuba rig. When I'm cruising, the regulator hose vibrates from the water rushing past it, and a reg that is not adjusted right will freeflow if I look forward. That should give you some idea of the speeds possible with the a good kit optimized for hydrodynamics.

The only diving I can think of that does not involve swimming is commercial hard-hat diving.