Question Experiences with Apeks XL4 Ocea vs Atomic Z3?

[Owen Hodges]

So I just bought a set of apeks xtx50's I have only used them in the pool but I'm really not that impressed with them. I bought them because on every forum like 90 percent of people say xtx50 is the way to go. Maybe I'm just being to picky but I just don't see what makes them so great. For example if I change my head position so I turn on my side and look back or I roll on my back and look up you can hardly breathe through them at all in just 15 ft of water. I notice they don't breathe wet but you really are not getting any air in these positions at least through mine. They are brand new and the tech said he was setting them for cracking pressure of 1 so I assume that's pretty good. With all this said I understand the physics of the situation so maybe all regs are the same. I have dove conshelf and mares abyss but at the time I wasn't flipping all around so I'm not sure if they suffer in the same positions. What I do know is it was really noticeable on the apeks for whatever reason.

 

[Nemrod]

So I just bought a set of apeks xtx50's I have only used them in the pool but I'm really not that impressed with them. I bought them because on every forum like 90 percent of people say xtx50 is the way to go. Maybe I'm just being to picky but I just don't see what makes them so great. For example if I change my head position so I turn on my side and look back or I roll on my back and look up you can hardly breathe through them at all in just 15 ft of water. I notice they don't breathe wet but you really are not getting any air in these positions at least through mine. They are brand new and the tech said he was setting them for cracking pressure of 1 so I assume that's pretty good. With all this said I understand the physics of the situation so maybe all regs are the same. I have dove conshelf and mares abyss but at the time I wasn't flipping all around so I'm not sure if they suffer in the same positions. What I do know is it was really noticeable on the apeks for whatever reason.

That is pretty much normal. Regulators like the G260/G250 (USD/AL 1085, some Mares) may show somewhat less position variation due to the large(er) diaphragm and greater mechanical advantage.

 

[Geo7]

I'm not sure. I changed the purge cover on a Z2, but I don't recall about the diaphragm. That said, I do recall that they have what they call a "cave ring" for the M1. I believe that is supposed to be for the purpose of allowing you to remove the purge cover and diaphragm while underwater if you need to. So, my GUESS is that, if you do need a tool to remove the diaphragm in a Z2, you could probably get the cave ring part for an M1 and put it in a Z2 to eliminate the need for a tool. But, I do not know. Maybe @Geo7 can say.

That's correct, the modern Atomics have an inner ring that secures the diaphragm even if you lose the front cover. The modern ones (Z2, T2 etc) can be removed by hand if they are tight. Might be able to take pics by Friday. The old ones however (Z1, B1, T1) did not have the tabs and are hard to remove if there is salt in there and it has been tightened too much.

The M1 cave ring combines all this, and the friction ring sticks to the front cover. So you unscrew the front cover and take out the diaphragm. With the standard ones you have front cover with retaining ring, then unscrew the retaining ring and take out the friction ring with diaphragm.

Atomic designed lightweight second stages. The T2X with titanium swivel floats in saltwater when full of air. To achieve that they have a thinner housing than e.g. a G250V. It's incredibly sturdy and they did a good job, but the threads are fine. So if you screw the M1 ring (steel) on while underwater, you have to be very careful to engage the threads correctly because they are finer threads than a G250 and easier to cross thread. I still like the cave ring though.

Another thing to consider, Apeks second stage diaphragms lay flat in the housing instead of needing to be inserted into a grove. Assembling an Atomic or S620ti underwater will be a bit more finicky with the elaborate membrane edge that fits into a groove. If you really need the feature of underwater removal, a G250, G260, Apeks TX50 or ATX50 may be more straightforward to deal with. But the M1 cave ring is great. I have titanium rings of the T1X just because it is sturdy and compact. I stopped worrying about taking apart the reg underwater because I don't do crazy overhead dives. Debris clears easily, and I have at least 4 regs around me including my buddy's. That said, I can open the reg and re-assemble, just not as easily as the M1 and some selected regs mentioned above.

 

[Geo7]

Not really, you just have to make sure that the second stage is slightly lower than the first stage when you dunk the set into water. I never had issues in 26 years of using and selling Atomic regulators because of the seat saver feature. I never used a scuba tank while rinsing the reg. This issue is grossly exaggerated.





T F X!!!

Yup, I recently soaked my T1X set after a week of diving, and just made sure the first stage cap was tight and placed the reg in a tub. I made sure the 1st stage was higher then the 2nd stages. When I was done I connected the reg to a tank and when I pressurized, it did not do the usual hiss. I then purged it and felt a little freshwater squeezing out before the air came. I have been always doing it like that, but this was the first time I felt the water coming out of the 2nd stages. It's clean freshwater, the reg is titanium, and I let it dry without the cap for 24 hours so any moisture could evaporate. The more time passes, the more I like this design...

oh, and, yeah.... TFX!!!

 

[Geo7]

Curious to the answers, not an argument.

Does the Atomic first stage sans Spec boot have large oblong/oval ambient holes like the Mark 25 Evo or are they the tiny little pin holes like a Mark 10 with Spec boot?

The holes are round large ones, and there is a trim ring with same sized holes available, like the early Mk10.

Does the Atomic have a diaphragm screw in retainer under the soft purge cover, that needs a tool to remove? How about Apeks?

Adressed above. Yes ring is there, no tool needed.

What is the Atomic case made out of ( I am careful also but still a tank got dropped hard on my G250 and it went unscathed)? Same for the Apeks, what is that case made out of, is it plain ABS like other AL products?

I think it is fiber reinforced plastic, perhaps nylon? Sturdy stuff, great material. Not the brittle ABS like Apeks ATX and AL! The threads are a little finer and screwing on the front cover needs a tiny bit attention (a G260 is much easier to screw on underwater). But a titanium Atomic second stage with titanium swivel is small (low volume) and yet floats in salt water...

The Atomic auto seat saver, does the second stage have to be under pressure to rinse (I usually just pop the cover off my G250/G260 after a day of diving and rinse it out with a hose)? Since the Atomic is a titanium barrel, it presumably can live without rinsing perhaps, salt will still build up however but that is a strong positive.

Exactly, for several weeks of 3-4 dives a day I don't bother rinsing. I then soak thoroughly afterwards (as described above). I have never soaked under pressure. Always threw the regs in a tub. Never a problem. The used ones I bought also came in great shape. Except the Monel parts in the 1st stage need some polishing (easy to do and the alloy responds nicely to polishing).

If this keeps up I will just have to buy an Atomic to see for myself. I want the full titanium one if I buy yet another toy . Just saying, I really, really, do not like soft purge covers and threaded retainers, that alone kicks my ABS brakes on!

Absolutely, titanium is just too amazing to pass up. That material just does not age. I will never need an ultrasonic bath for these regs.

I understand you dislike soft covers. I that case I recommend to avoid the M1 cover as that one seems less sturdy to me than the others. A Ti2, T2X or T3 cover will last however. If you get just one spare for 20 bucks, you're set for decades. There are advantages too: the regs are small and light...

The main thing is that you like the beathing characteristics. Rob gave them high scores, and I too think they breathe smoothly, but there is a subjective aspect to this. Also, there are more parts, but once assembled, and adjusted the regs are stable for a long time, compared to other regs. And if someone is used to a Conshelf and loves simplicity, switching to Atomic (like many modern regs) is a philosphical paradigm change. The Atomic regs just keep working, so I accepted the parts count.

And I have to say, that particular design of cracking effort adjuster is not affected by salt, sand, silt. The G250 and Apeks foul up and need cleaning after some beach dives. The G260 and S620ti less so, but the S600, G500 and Atomic don't accumulate silt in the threads.

 

[BoltSnap]

The holes are round large ones, and there is a ring with same sized rings available, like the early Mk10.


Adressed above. Yes ring is there, no tool needed.


I think it is fiber reinforced plastic, perhaps nylon? Sturdy stuff, great material. Not the brittle ABS like Apeks ATX and AL! The threads are a little finer and screwing on the front cover needs a tiny bit attention (a G260 is much easier to screw on underwater). But a titanium Atomic second stage with titanium swivel floats in salt water...


Exactly, for several weeks of 3-4 dives a day I don't bother rinsing. I then soak thoroughly adterwards (as described above). I have never soaked under pressure. Always threw the regs in a tub. Never a problem. The used ones I bought also came in great shape. Except the Monel parts in the 1st stage need some polishing (easy to do and the alloy responds nicely to polishing).


Absolutely, titanium is just too amazing to pass up. That material just does not age. I will never need an ultrasonic bath for these regs.

I understand you dislike soft covers. I that case I recommend to avoid the M1 cover as that one seems less sturdy to me than the others. A Ti2, T2X or T3 cover will last however. If you get just one spare for 20 bucks, you're set for decades. There are advantages too: the regs are small and light...

The main thing is that you like the beathing characteristics. Rob gave them high scores, and I too think they breathe smoothly, but there is a subjective aspect to this. Also, there are more parts, but once assembled and adjusted the regs are stable for a long time, compared to other regs. But if someone is used to a Conshelf and loves simplicity, it is a philosphical paradigm change. The regs just keep working, so I accepted the parts count. And I have to say, that design of cracking effort adjuster does not care for salt, sand, silt. The G250 and Apeks foul up and need cleaning after beach dives. The G260 and S620ti less so, but S600, G500 and Atomic don't accumulate silt in the threads.

@Nemrod

Just get the TFX, it will last you for the next 3 - 4 decades of diving (or until the next $10,000 regulator comes out). You will thank me later. Don't forget to give me credit for convincing you to buy it however

 

[lexvil]

Zeagle F8

 

[Owen Hodges]

That is pretty much normal. Regulators like the G260/G250 (USD/AL 1085, some Mares) may show somewhat less position variation due to the large(er) diaphragm and greater mechanical advantage.

That does make since, However I don't know regulators like you do lol. Can you help me choose a regulator that will breathe really well even if I'm rolling around or is this even possible? I'm sure apeks is really good because so many people recommend them but I guess I want something better if possible. Do you know why so many people like apeks? Should I be looking at scubapro and atomic, and if so which is your choice?

 

[Nemrod]

That does make since, However I don't know regulators like you do lol. Can you help me choose a regulator that will breathe really well even if I'm rolling around or is this even possible? I'm sure apeks is really good because so many people recommend them but I guess I want something better if possible. Do you know why so many people like apeks? Should I be looking at scubapro and atomic, and if so which is your choice?

There is nothing wrong with the Apeks ATX regulator. All regulators have postional variation. The smaller, compact models with smaller diaphragms, may (and I said may because there are clever schemes to account for this) have more variation due to lesser mechanical advantage.

Atomic (any) are good and while I have no great experience with them enough people I respect have them and enjoy them. Scubapro G260 is a full size second stage, large diaphragm, it is a rugged and durable regulator with known good breathing characteristics (it is pretty good with positional variation). The Scubapro S370 is a more compact model that apparently also has a very good reputation for excellent performance, just about anything $cubapro . I again do not have direct experience with Deep 6 regulators but people I respect recommend them. They have a different direct sales business model but I think they are in some retail stores also.

After having recommended Aqua Lung (and AL owns Apeks) regulators and owning quite a few of them over decades I now advise caution, not due to quality or performance but they were having cash flow issues and have been bought 100% by an investment holding company and that needs to kind of wash out. Many stores have had difficulty getting product to sell and parts. It will probably all work out but I would not want to purchase a new orphan either, so I am giving them a time out (as I hand my wife a new AL Core Supreme for our next dives ).

Pay no attention to the double hose side, just look at the single hose side, see the descriptions for breathing characteristics due to position. Again, all regulators perform this way.

 

[Geo7]

Curious to the answers, not an argument.

Does the Atomic first stage sans Spec boot have large oblong/oval ambient holes like the Mark 25 Evo or are they the tiny little pin holes like a Mark 10 with Spec boot?

Does the Atomic have a diaphragm screw in retainer under the soft purge cover, that needs a tool to remove? How about Apeks?

What is the Atomic case made out of ( I am careful also but still a tank got dropped hard on my G250 and it went unscathed)? Same for the Apeks, what is that case made out of, is it plain ABS like other AL products?

The Atomic auto seat saver, does the second stage have to be under pressure to rinse (I usually just pop the cover off my G250/G260 after a day of diving and rinse it out with a hose)? Since the Atomic is a titanium barrel, it presumably can live without rinsing perhaps, salt will still build up however but that is a strong positive.

If this keeps up I will just have to buy an Atomic to see for myself. I want the full titanium one if I buy yet another toy . Just saying, I really, really, do not like soft purge covers and threaded retainers, that alone kicks my ABS brakes on!

Some pics to illustrate the points made earlier.

Here is the diaphragm retainer of the T2, B2, Z2 generation. You can move the tabs with fingers.

And here the entire assembly. The T1X cover and ring are old generation, but the diaphragm retaining ring is the newer. If you want to simplify and deal with only front cover/friction ring/diaphragm, the M1 can do that (see next post).

And here is a first stage with the trim ring removed. The trim ring is thick and has holes, the environmental seal is thin and does not.