DIVING OVER 50 YEARS OLD

[tkaelin]

I understand the policy applied to those who want to become certified but I would think you would want that applied across the board regardless of age. I vaguely recall I had to have a physical before my YMCA cert in the 70's (some one can chime in if I am wrong). My kids in High School had to have a sports physical every year to be cleared to play sports but the school offered those services on site. I see the logic with anyone who has never dove before. For the certified diver, I still don't see the rationale for an arbitrary cut off. Best of luck sorting this out.

 

[ibj40]

I guess, at 65, with 30+ years of diving (PADI Divemaster/DAN Preferred), and over 1000+ dives (I quit counting); I'm lucky that I've been able to dive the Pacific side of Central American twice, and won't have to use your operation. I am sure it has already been pointed out, but some of us "old" divers could dive circles around divers who are half to one-third our age, and then go out for a second tank. If you are going to be that restrictive, hire an MD and have him put every one of your customers through a full work-up.

I assume that you will post this offensive policy clearly on the front page of your web site, so that when I am searching, I can skip right on by.

 

[clarkey]

I think there is some misunderstanding here..... I mentioned that one option was to ask for medical certs for over 50s, but another was to ask for proof of insurance, which I think is a fairly common request at resorts etc.
I'm merely looking at options here, and certainly not trying to be age-ist towards anyone (I am in my mid 40s myself), so to anyone who thinks I am being offensive, apologies, and please read the thread carefully before getting upset.

I have contacted DAN for specific provisions for this area and have so far been passed on by two people who seem unwilling or unable to answer the question, so I remain skeptical of their knowledge or experience of this part of Central America. I will gladly share any responses I get from them though...

 

[SOFDiver]

As an operator you can require any thing you like of your divers/customers. Having said that, I am an active instructor, a licensed 100 ton Master, and contract with a dive operator here in FL. I am 67 years old, have been diving since 1958, weigh 163 pounds and display a six pack. I primarily work as instructor and dive master aboard our charter boat. We see every kind of diver you can imagine, and we closely evaluate every diver before they enter the water. All of our team are trained as first responders, and we have all the life support equipment aboard required for dive operations.
The key to any viable operation is making the divers/ customers aware of the risks associated with the diving activity, and having them acknowledge that risk. At that point if they choose to proceed they are assuming the risk. That is not to say we do not expect minimum performance standards, and during or after the first dive we have pulled the ticket of individuals due to safety concerns. Requiring divers to provide a medical certificate to me seems excessive, and is no guarantee that an individual will not have a medical issue at any time. What worries me more than anything
are expirence issues, a person who has not been diving in several years to me is more of a risk that a robust guy or rubinisque gal who has been diving on a regular basis, and who demonstrates general competence and confidence.
I guess what we do on a daily basis is risky business, if we recognize that fact I believe we can be successful. Just my opinion......

 

[Lorenzoid]

Experience can only help so much. Anyone can have a heart attack, and older people seem to have more heart attacks than younger people.

"To better understand the specific role of age in these deaths, we went back to the associated injury data and this time looked at the trends by dividing members into two age groups: over 50 and under 50. In this analysis, we found that older divers were three times more likely to die from asphyxia; four times more likely to die from AGE and 13 times more likely to die from cardiac events than the under-50 dive group."

Alert Diver | DAN Research Updates

 

[agilis]

Experience can only help so much. Anyone can have a heart attack, and older people seem to have more heart attacks than younger people.

"To better understand the specific role of age in these deaths, we went back to the associated injury data and this time looked at the trends by dividing members into two age groups: over 50 and under 50. In this analysis, we found that older divers were three times more likely to die from asphyxia; four times more likely to die from AGE and 13 times more likely to die from cardiac events than the under-50 dive group."

Alert Diver | DAN Research Updates

Still, experience does provide certain insights.

For example, I've noticed that old people tend to die much more frequently, under normal circumstances, than young people. Just look at actuarial statistics and the consequent age related rates charged for life insurance. They are a dead giveaway that old people are much more likely to die, even if they stay at home and eat kale.

I'm sure there are other indicators in addition to age, but I definitely think DAN is onto something there. I've noticed, scanning the obituary page in my newspaper, that a disproportionate number of the dead people listed there are over 50.

That's probably where the DAN researchers got the idea from.

 

[tkaelin]

SOFDiver makes some good points. Going through this thread gave me an opportunity to reflect on the overall issue which as I see it in part is how do you as a business owner operator help insure the safety of your customers who are in engaging in an activity that requires some physical fitness and good health and poses some risk. I hike, ski and dive and especially when diving on a dive boat I always size up the crew and divers I am with. While you can make some quick judgments and impressions on whether you think this person is a good diver or a potential risk, age and physical appearance are indicators but not really more so than other indicators and as the saying goes you can't necessarily judge a book by its cover. This thread made me think back to my last trip in Bon in Jan. On our boat dives during the week we dove with some of the same divers all week. People ranged in age, shape, weight, appearance and physical fitness and limitations. What they all had for the most part was solid experience and sound judgment. The dives with the group was a pleasure and all dove with competence and skill. You would not necessarily have guessed that by just doing the quick looking and listening around initial assessment.

When I have hiked long distances such as part of the Appalachian and Long Trail, many times I am surprised as to who does well and who does not. I have seen the young and supposedly fit looking who must spend time in a gym crash and perform poorly while I have seen others (no offense meant) such as the women in late 60s of some weight and no obvious physical fitness move along all day without any apparent problem.

This was similar to my experience on my last Bon trip. I would guess 80% were over 50, some did not fit the profile of looking physically fit and some had physical issues such as a bad knee, hip or back that had them need a little assistance with tanks, walking on deck, getting back on board etc. In the water, they were all fish.

 

[Bob DBF]

Experience can only help so much. Anyone can have a heart attack, and older people seem to have more heart attacks than younger people.

"To better understand the specific role of age in these deaths, we went back to the associated injury data and this time looked at the trends by dividing members into two age groups: over 50 and under 50. In this analysis, we found that older divers were three times more likely to die from asphyxia; four times more likely to die from AGE and 13 times more likely to die from cardiac events than the under-50 dive group."

Alert Diver | DAN Research Updates

And I would bet that if the cutoff was 40 or 60, you would get almost exactly the same result since the rates of these issues in the general population are are exceptionally low up to age 40 and exceptionally high over age 70. May be if it were broken down better, say 5 year blocks it might show something different than what is trying to show.

For the most part, divers do a good job of deciding when to quit because of health, seen it happen more than I would like. Since health issues are less than 25% of the low number of fatalities in diving, it would seem to me that working on the other 75% might make more sense.

As for the OP's problem, I would make it quite clear to prospective clients that they are in a remote area and there is a distinct lack of medical facilities and lack of swift transportation to the distant hospital services. Also a prospective diver should consult their physician on the advisability of diving in that situation. At that point, it should dissuade anyone that is not confident of their good health, without requiring paperwork the does not actually guarantee an accident free dive.


Bob

 

[Stoo]

I'm merely looking at options here, and certainly not trying to be age-ist towards anyone (I am in my mid 40s myself), so to anyone who thinks I am being offensive, apologies, and please read the thread carefully before getting upset..

Adam, I don't feel you are being offensive at all. Some of the responses, on the other hand... ;-)

I think we all agree that any age group can have "diving accidents" and perhaps older divers, assuming that they are regular divers and experienced, get the nod here. However. "older" divers also come with increasingly serious illnesses or "conditions". Combine "older" and "newbie" and you are opening up a real kettle of fish. The two accidents I alluded to earlier were both older (mid 50s - early 60s. One was a newer diver and the other was a formerly experienced diver who had returned to the sport after an 8 year hiatus. He took a refresher course from a friend of mine the day before, and did fine. He simply had a heart attack fighting the current. Not many 30 year old's are likely to have that happen, regardless of their level of diving experience.)

Someone questioned how someone's insurance would benefit this operator and it's simple really. When someone has a medical emergency, there is a great deal of pressure, justified or not, for the dive op to do whatever is necessary to assist, especially in the case of a serious emergency. If the guest doesn't have insurance that will "pony up" on the spot, and the guest is either (a) incapacitated, (b) broke or (c) lacks the headroom on a credit card, the operator is "forced" to come up with the cash. I am familiar with two cases were divers suffering from DCS (one in Belize and one in the Exumas) where chambers refused treatment until a deposit was made. The Bahamian chamber wanted $6,000 US. I'm not sure about the Belizian deal. You can imagine the pressure a dive operator would feel to come up with the cash to help their guest. Add transport costs and a couple of these accidents could put a small operation out of business.

 

[undrwater]

How about a handwritten and signed statement to the effect of:

"I testify to the best of my knowledge that I am aware of and an capable if meeting the challenges presented by..."

This after reading a paragraph describing the nature of the location.

At least then the participants would then be thinking before they acted.