Diving without part of a lung

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Sorry about the tech talk... yes, given the information you've provided, air trapping and exercise tolerance would be the two biggest factors in whether he's fit to dive.

We can't know for sure what all the risks are, but your loved one can certainly engage a UKDMC diving medical referee who can evaluate him in person, order any testing necessary, and discuss those risks with him based on his medical history. It may well be that he can return to diving.

Best regards,
DDM

Thanks a lot for your help, everybody! It's great to know which aspects it is important to evaluate.

And thanks a lot for pointing me to UKDMC; that looks like the safest way to proceed. There is one doctor who's at an one-hour ride from our town, and several others at a reasonable distance, so it'll be easy to engage one and discuss the situation with him/her.

I will certainly bring up the subject of diving as soon as the opportunity arises, and will encourage J. to go and see that doctor. I know he really regrets not diving any more, and I would really love to help him do it again, if possible.

I'll let you know how this turns up. I hope it'll be all right!
 
What do you mean by the "danger of incidental findings"? It sounds like you're advocating for erring on the side of not imaging so as not to see something else that could be adverse.


Enough to rule out air trapping that can be discovered with existing technology, and THEN we'd have a conversation about the limits of the technology and the risk of diving.

Best regards,
DDM
Thanks for the responses. You did miss one of my questions. Is there any research to point to what degree of air trapping found on a CT of the chest corelates to an increased risk of injury when diving? IE what is the clinical significance of the finding.

This is my rub with the exam - if there is no solid evidence of what degree of air trapping is or is not safe, what recommendation can we reasonably make when we get a result from the exam? Do we know how much the risk of embolism or pneumothorax is increased with a small amount of air trapping above the baseline risk associated with diving? How about with a large amount of trapping? If I cannot tell the patient how much greater their risk is based off the test, then how useful is the test? Finally, if there is no air trapping apparent on the CT can I with any degree of certainty tell the patient their risk for barotrauma is as low as someone who had no indication for the exam in the first place? If the risk is still elevated compared to a healthy baseline, by how much?

So perhaps my somewhat wandering thought process above can be better distilled to this - Yes a CT of the chest may offer additional information, but does that information produce any better understanding of the patient's actual risk beyond the nebulous "you are at increased risk."

in regards to incidental findings on imaging I mean the following - We are performing a screening exam (in this case a CT of the chest for a perceived possible problem) on someone who is more or less healthy (IE well enough to consider scuba diving based on history and physical exam). We think it may be possible there is some degree of air trapping on the CT and we want to evaluate for this, even though the patient may not have any outward signs of pulmonary dysfunction.

Lets then say on this exam we find a lesion in the liver. This finding just roped our patient into at a minimum additional imaging and surveillance as well possibly a biopsy for in what all likelihood is a benign lesion. What if that biopsy does not go well and there are complications with bleeding and infection from the procedure; thankfully it is rare but it does happen.

Even if there is no complication from the biopsy, or a watchful waiting approach is adopted without biopsy, our patient now has months (possibly years) of anxiety, stress, and cost associated with this finding that never would be present if we did not perform the original exam in the first place; an original exam that I am not sure can greatly inform the decision making process on is it safe to dive to begin with.
 
Thanks for the responses. You did miss one of my questions. Is there any research to point to what degree of air trapping found on a CT of the chest corelates to an increased risk of injury when diving? IE what is the clinical significance of the finding.
Research on the degree of air trapping and the risk of pulmonary barotrauma? It would be great in theory but it would probably take decades to get a high enough "n" to power a study like that. Not that we shouldn't engage in research where it's practical, but there are so many things out there that could affect fitness to dive that it's impossible to study them all. One of the main reasons we train undersea and hyperbaric medicine fellows is so that they'll be able to assess an individual with "x" illness or disease process, understand where the pathophysiology of that illness intersects with diving physiology, and collaborate with the individual to make an educated, informed decision about diving.

I wonder if you're under the impression that the hyperbaric medicine community is over-cautious with respect to clearance to dive. That perhaps used to be the case, but nowadays the community as a whole takes a descriptive approach as opposed to proscriptive. Asthma is a good example - it used to be a show-stopper for a recreational diver, especially in the US (the UK was much more liberal). Not so anymore.

Back to the OP's case though. Let's say we imaged this gentleman and discovered air trapping. Any air trapping on imaging is a contraindication to diving, and we would advise him so. If he insisted on diving anyway, that's his choice, and we'd then educate him about the risks. Providers in the US are not the diving police, we can't prohibit anyone from diving, all we can do is educate. It's different in other countries though, and I don't know a provider anywhere in the world who would sign off on an FTD exam in this case.

in regards to incidental findings on imaging I mean the following - We are performing a screening exam (in this case a CT of the chest for a perceived possible problem) on someone who is more or less healthy (IE well enough to consider scuba diving based on history and physical exam). We think it may be possible there is some degree of air trapping on the CT and we want to evaluate for this, even though the patient may not have any outward signs of pulmonary dysfunction.

Lets then say on this exam we find a lesion in the liver. This finding just roped our patient into at a minimum additional imaging and surveillance as well possibly a biopsy for in what all likelihood is a benign lesion. What if that biopsy does not go well and there are complications with bleeding and infection from the procedure; thankfully it is rare but it does happen.
Let's say the liver lesion is malignant. That incidental finding may save the individual's life. Using the scenario you've described above as a blanket reason to avoid imaging is clinically unsound.

Best regards,
DDM
 
…a possibility, albeit limited. Check w/Duke Dive Medicine/pulmomology and consult a Specialist with knowledge about diving and lung conditions. Looks as if you have a logical map to follow. Like myself….ease into diving with caution on ‘his own terms’ and don’t be afraid to raise red flag or abort a dive. Check it out …then the call is theirs…

I wish y’all the best…
 
Research on the degree of air trapping and the risk of pulmonary barotrauma? It would be great in theory but it would probably take decades to get a high enough "n" to power a study like that. Not that we shouldn't engage in research where it's practical, but there are so many things out there that could affect fitness to dive that it's impossible to study them all. One of the main reasons we train undersea and hyperbaric medicine fellows is so that they'll be able to assess an individual with "x" illness or disease process, understand where the pathophysiology of that illness intersects with diving physiology, and collaborate with the individual to make an educated, informed decision about diving.

I wonder if you're under the impression that the hyperbaric medicine community is over-cautious with respect to clearance to dive. That used to be the case, but nowadays the community as a whole takes a descriptive approach as opposed to proscriptive. Asthma is a good example - it used to be a show-stopper for a recreational diver, especially in the US (the UK was much more liberal). Not so anymore.

Back to the OP's case though. Let's say we imaged this gentleman and discovered air trapping. Any air trapping on imaging is a contraindication to diving, and we would advise him so. If he insisted on diving anyway, that's his choice, and we'd then educate him about the risks. Providers in the US are not the diving police, we can't prohibit anyone from diving, all we can do is educate. It's different in other countries though, and I don't know a provider anywhere in the world who would sign off on an FTD exam in this case.


Let's say the liver lesion is malignant. That incidental finding may save the individual's life. Using the scenario you've described above as a blanket reason to avoid imaging is clinically unsound.

Best regards,
DDM

I find the decision that recommendations are made purely on the understanding of physiology and pathophysiology to be a little disconcerting, as the history of medicine is littered with things we thought would work (or were dangerous) had bioplausability, but turned out to be dead wrong.

As I noted earlier, CT scans have noted small amounts of air trapping in some otherwise perfectly healthy appearing individuals. It would stand to reason that some divers likely have this finding and continue to apparently dive safely.

None the less I will acknowledge that data generation in this one specific space would be difficult to say the least. I also do not know how many people we are talking about - the number of divers who appear healthy but due to prior injury/surgery/illness there is some desire to screen them for diving. Is there enough demand to justify the resources spent in this population? I agree that anyone involved would love more data to hang their hat on when making these decisions. I do think it is imporntant that our patients are aware that when these evaluations are being performed we often do not have any solid data one way or the other when deciding if someone is fit or unfit to dive once we get away from the margins (obviously healthy or obviously unfit)

I will argue that saying the lack of a clearance to dive does not prevent someone from diving is not always true. Certainly there are professional divers who if not cleared would not be permitted to continue to work. I would argue that significant evidence should be needed to end someone’s career. I would also argue that the risk of downstream problems related decision to not clear a professional diver (loss of income, possible depression/substance abuse, loss of insurance, personal relationship strain, etc) should be considered together with the risk of diving, as one risk may outweigh the other.

Additionally even recreational divers may have issues if that diver needs the assistance of a dive shop for rentals or guides and the shop wants a physician note for one reason or another. Or perhaps a spouse who insists on a “clean bill of health” to dive. Perhaps their insurance coverage requires a fitness to dive exam. Any of these reasons may find a recreational diver now land locked with a failed medical.

I do thank you for sharing that generally the dive physician community looks for reasons someone should be allowed to continue diving vs looking for reasons to disqualify someone, but I would still find it more reassuring if all of the decisions (either yes or no) had better evidence beyond expert opinion based on bioplausible theories. Although I will also acknowledge this issue is in no way limited to dive medicine alone.

As to the discussion about incidental findings - I do not use the risk of unanticipated findings as a sole reason to not run a study, but I do believe it is something that should be considered; IE how informative is this study going to be for the clinical question that I want the study for vs the cost/time/risk of the study itself (radiation, injury, etc) vs what do I do with any incendential findings that pop up.

Over the last decade or so there has been much more research and talk about the increasing rates of incidental findings as imaging as gotten more detailed and prevalent. There is at least an ongoing conversation that more harm rather than good is being done.

“Incidental imaging findings are common and analogous to the results of screening tests when screening is performed of unselected, low-risk patients. Approximately 15–30% of all diagnostic imaging and 20–40% of CT examinations contain at least one incidental finding. Patients with incidental findings but low risk for disease are likely to experience length bias, lead-time bias, overdiagnosis, and overtreatment that create an illusion of benefit while conferring harm.”


“In an analysis of medical records gathered from more than 300 hospitalized patients, a team of researchers reports that routine imaging scans used to help diagnose heart attacks generated “incidental findings” (IFs) in more than half of these patients.
The investigators say only about 7 percent of these IFs were medically significant and urged imaging experts and hospitals to explore ways to safely reduce the added costly — and potentially risky — days in the hospital the IFs generate.”


“As practitioners increasingly rely on cross-sectional imaging, they are faced with a rising burden of incidental findings. In a retrospectively identified, contemporary cohort of patients who underwent 1426 imaging studies in the setting of clinical research, 567 (39.8%) had a minimum of one incidental finding.<a href="The Economic Burden of Incidentally Detected Findings - PMC">19</a> Further work-up definitively benefitted patients in 6 cases (1.1%) in which significant infections or neoplasms were identified.<a href="The Economic Burden of Incidentally Detected Findings - PMC">19</a> While incidental findings occasionally present an opportunity to cure or halt an otherwise lethal disease, many downstream consequences are negative. For patients, they can create anxiety and additional work-up for findings which are ultimately benign or unlikely to affect their life expectancy. For busy practitioners, the recommended follow-up can be difficult to organize, and can detract care from more important medical issues. Furthermore, these consequences can translate into substantial downstream expenditures.”

 
I find the decision that recommendations are made purely on the understanding of physiology and pathophysiology to be a little disconcerting, as the history of medicine is littered with things we thought would work (or were dangerous) had bioplausability, but turned out to be dead wrong.

As I noted earlier, CT scans have noted small amounts of air trapping in some otherwise perfectly healthy appearing individuals. It would stand to reason that some divers likely have this finding and continue to apparently dive safely.

None the less I will acknowledge that data generation in this one specific space would be difficult to say the least. I also do not know how many people we are talking about - the number of divers who appear healthy but due to prior injury/surgery/illness there is some desire to screen them for diving. Is there enough demand to justify the resources spent in this population? I agree that anyone involved would love more data to hang their hat on when making these decisions. I do think it is imporntant that our patients are aware that when these evaluations are being performed we often do not have any solid data one way or the other when deciding if someone is fit or unfit to dive once we get away from the margins (obviously healthy or obviously unfit)

I will argue that saying the lack of a clearance to dive does not prevent someone from diving is not always true. Certainly there are professional divers who if not cleared would not be permitted to continue to work. I would argue that significant evidence should be needed to end someone’s career. I would also argue that the risk of downstream problems related decision to not clear a professional diver (loss of income, possible depression/substance abuse, loss of insurance, personal relationship strain, etc) should be considered together with the risk of diving, as one risk may outweigh the other.

Additionally even recreational divers may have issues if that diver needs the assistance of a dive shop for rentals or guides and the shop wants a physician note for one reason or another. Or perhaps a spouse who insists on a “clean bill of health” to dive. Perhaps their insurance coverage requires a fitness to dive exam. Any of these reasons may find a recreational diver now land locked with a failed medical.

I do thank you for sharing that generally the dive physician community looks for reasons someone should be allowed to continue diving vs looking for reasons to disqualify someone, but I would still find it more reassuring if all of the decisions (either yes or no) had better evidence beyond expert opinion based on bioplausible theories. Although I will also acknowledge this issue is in no way limited to dive medicine alone.

As to the discussion about incidental findings - I do not use the risk of unanticipated findings as a sole reason to not run a study, but I do believe it is something that should be considered; IE how informative is this study going to be for the clinical question that I want the study for vs the cost/time/risk of the study itself (radiation, injury, etc) vs what do I do with any incendential findings that pop up.

Over the last decade or so there has been much more research and talk about the increasing rates of incidental findings as imaging as gotten more detailed and prevalent. There is at least an ongoing conversation that more harm rather than good is being done.

“Incidental imaging findings are common and analogous to the results of screening tests when screening is performed of unselected, low-risk patients. Approximately 15–30% of all diagnostic imaging and 20–40% of CT examinations contain at least one incidental finding. Patients with incidental findings but low risk for disease are likely to experience length bias, lead-time bias, overdiagnosis, and overtreatment that create an illusion of benefit while conferring harm.”


“In an analysis of medical records gathered from more than 300 hospitalized patients, a team of researchers reports that routine imaging scans used to help diagnose heart attacks generated “incidental findings” (IFs) in more than half of these patients.
The investigators say only about 7 percent of these IFs were medically significant and urged imaging experts and hospitals to explore ways to safely reduce the added costly — and potentially risky — days in the hospital the IFs generate.”


“As practitioners increasingly rely on cross-sectional imaging, they are faced with a rising burden of incidental findings. In a retrospectively identified, contemporary cohort of patients who underwent 1426 imaging studies in the setting of clinical research, 567 (39.8%) had a minimum of one incidental finding.<a href="The Economic Burden of Incidentally Detected Findings - PMC">19</a> Further work-up definitively benefitted patients in 6 cases (1.1%) in which significant infections or neoplasms were identified.<a href="The Economic Burden of Incidentally Detected Findings - PMC">19</a> While incidental findings occasionally present an opportunity to cure or halt an otherwise lethal disease, many downstream consequences are negative. For patients, they can create anxiety and additional work-up for findings which are ultimately benign or unlikely to affect their life expectancy. For busy practitioners, the recommended follow-up can be difficult to organize, and can detract care from more important medical issues. Furthermore, these consequences can translate into substantial downstream expenditures.”

Re your point about the possibility of people who dive with air trapping, sure, that's possible. It's also a risk-taking behavior with extremely high potential consequences for the diver, their buddies, and the medical system, with no way to mitigate that risk. It's clinically indefensible to not image someone with a high likelihood of air trapping when evaluating fitness to dive. Re incidental findings, of course there are incidental findings, and there are going to be more as imaging technology advances. That risk is a small part of the decision process when considering imaging, but as you stated, it should in no way justify not obtaining necessary studies.

I'm reading your posts as a lengthy post hoc summary of your rationale for basically OK'ing the OP's friend to dive in post #5. Unless you've been corresponding with her and have her friend's medical records in front of you, the only information that you have about him is what she, as a lay person with an admittedly limited understanding of his condition, posted. Information provided in an internet forum is often incomplete. That is why many of the answers I offer here include a recommendation to be evaluated in person, which thankfully the OP seems to have accepted. You've gone to great lengths and used broad generalities to argue against a well-justified (again given the information provided) diving medical exam, probably with imaging, in this particular case. Again, clinically indefensible.

I'm going to disengage from this conversation at this point as further discussion would probably be repetitive. The OP has the information she needs to make an informed decision.

Best regards,
DDM
 
That is why many of the answers I offer here include a recommendation to be evaluated in person, which thankfully the OP seems to have accepted.

I just wanted to say that this was my intention from the very beginning, but only if you had left me with some hope that diving may be possible (which I think you have). If you had told me to stop talking nonsense -politely, of course- I would have discarded the idea of suggesting going and seeing a doctor. I don't want to play with J.'s feelings and make him hope for the impossible or, even worse, encourage him to behave recklessly. But if there's a possibility that he can be thoroughly checked so as to discard a significant amount of added risk -though, of course no one can guarantee there's no risk at all, something that will probably happen with most of us, unchecked for many things as we are-, it'll be very worth doing so.

Once again, thanks for this very interesting discussion that has gone beyond what I asked. I think it's not only me who has had a good time reading and learning.
 

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