Difference between MB levels and Gradient Factors

[Sevenrider860]

Is this a watch style version of the g2 Tek or something else?

Watch style. Color. I saw a prerelease in Mexico and I saw a Special Edition "Red" version posted on the web somewhere.

 

[scubadada]

I would not go that far.

I think it is more likely that Scubapro is trying to capture additional sales with technical divers. The G2 is still selling very well and is only ZH-L16 ADT MB PMG. The G2 Tek is not a replacement to the G2, it allows technical divers to stay within the Scubapro system when they start moving to technical diving with offline deco planning. This might prevent a lost sale to Shearwater.

The HUD continues to support both algorithms, the Luna 2.0 computers will support both algorithms, and I believe the upcoming G3 wrist model will support both algorithms.

I see the support for ZH-L16 GF as a way to expand their current market, not to replace their existing ZH-L16 ADT MB PMG computer line which is selling very well..

With the G2 Tek and perhaps the HUD, I agree that Scubapro is trying to keep a segment of technical divers. However, the Luna 2.0 is not a technical computer and is aiming at a different population with a moderately priced non-AI and AI computer. The non-AI version may be able to compete with the Peregrine. The AI version will be the least expensive AI computer running ZH-L16C with GF. I have heard nothing about a G3, thanks for the photos, why the timing bezel?
Air Integrated Wrist Computers in the US

We'll all see whether Scubapro's proprietary ADT algorithm continues, or gives way to ZH-L16C with GF.

 

[tursiops]

I believe the upcoming G3 wrist model will support both algorithms.

Watch style. Color. I saw a prerelease in Mexico and I saw a Special Edition "Red" version posted on the web somewhere.

Why do you think this mythincal G3 is even a dive computer? The photos you provide just look like a plain old wristwatch.

 

[Sevenrider860]

With the G2 Tek and perhaps the HUD, I agree that Scubapro is trying to keep a segment of technical divers. However, the Luna 2.0 is not a technical computer and is aiming at a different population with a moderately priced non-AI and AI computer. The non-AI version may be able to compete with the Peregrine. The AI version will be the least expensive AI computer running ZH-L16C with GF. I have heard nothing about a G3, thanks for the photos.
Air Integrated Wrist Computers in the US

We'll all see whether Scubapro's proprietary ADT algorithm continues, or gives way to ZH-L16C with GF.

For non-trimix 3 gas dives the Peregrine makes an excellent backup to an air integrated Perdix. That is an all Shearwater solution that really was the only game in town Now you can have an all Scubapro solution with the G2 Tek and Luna 2.0 (AI or non-AI). The Luna is not marketed specifically at technical divers, but by adding ZH-L16C with GF they can now appeal to that group with this computer. I think it allows them to capture a greater market.

The truth is very few recreational divers know anything about the algorithms used. ZH-L16 ADT MB PMG works fine for them because they don't know what it is, and the marketing of "we can adjust your bottom time based on temperature and workload if you buy this heart rate monitor"...well now you are selling a Premium G2 based on features. For many willing to entertain this price range, features do sell. But anybody with a technical diving background and knowledge of algorithms won't bite. The proprietary algorithm sent them to Shearwater because there was no option available in the Scubapro line.

Ignoring the HUD, Scubapro had nothing for technical divers. I exclude the HUD because that can be a love hate item. Then Scubapro released the G2 Tek. It has ZH-L16 GF. Well, now you have a known algorithm, and to be honest, the G2 is not a bad computer. But for a cheaper backup like the Peregrine with the same algorithm...Scubapro had nothing. The Luna 2.0 fits that bill.

Another example is Dad or Mom the Technical diver buying for their OW kids. They know about algorithms. They are thinking Peregrine...now we have the Luna 2.0 with or without AI...Scubapro is meeting the algorithm and price point they want.

I personally don't see ADT going away. Scubapro makes a bg deal about their "Human Factor Diving". It sets them apart from other computers and can be the deciding factor between an Aqualung i770 or a Scubapro G2 for the uninformed.

 

[Sevenrider860]

Why do you think this mythincal G# is even a dive computer? The photos you provide just look like a plain old wristwatch.

Ok.. Scubapro is releasing a Galileo 3 wristwatch...

 

[scubadada]

Ok.. Scubapro is releasing a Galileo 3 wristwatch...

We'll see, I see at least 2 buttons on the left side and at least one on the right. I assumed it was a projected watch face, just like on the Teric or Garmin. I did wonder about the timing bezel and thought that might just be retro for wearing it as a "scuba" watch. Someday, it will be clear.

 

[dmaziuk]

From Deco for Divers, Mark Powell

"Unlike the first two models, which used 16 compartments, the newer model ZH-L8ADT uses only 8 compartments. It also includes the effects of temperature and work or breathing rate during the dive as well as taking into account microbubble formation. Unfortunately the ZH-L8ADT model is described only superficially in the latest edition of Buhlmann's book and doesn't include many details of the parameters of the model. The model was adopted by Uwatec and is the basis for their range of dive computers, as such it has been extensively dived by recreational divers around the world."

I don't know where the 16 compartment of this model came from.

One of the selling points of ZH-L16 is that its M-values are linked to compartment half-times by a simple formula(*). Which means that theoretically you can make up however many (or few) tissue compartments you want: just decide on half-times and get your M-values from that formula.

*) Which turned out to be not conservative enough in the middle, and M-values had to be adjusted, but you can trivially adjust yours by fitting htem to the adjusted (B or C) set curve.

 

[dmaziuk]

.. So this whole research really doesn't apply to the MB settings on the G2 in the first place? If the slower tissues are still on gassing, during the higher MB settings, the increased time on ascent will cancel everything out.

That was what the inventor of gradient factors wrote when he invented them, yes: a deeper initial stop will result in longer time to surface and everything will be peachy.

The conjecture from the research is that faster tissues can tolerate greater overpressure gradients just like everyone except Yount and Wienke believed, and so there appears to be no benefit to having longer decompression times, dragging more deco gas with you, and all that.

So the conclusion of that research really doesn't apply if your concerned more about AGE than anything else? I do wish there was more information about their MB levels and how each level would apply to age, fitness, and those kinds of things?

The relevance of NEDU research to old unfit hung over underwater tourists is likely somewhere between zero and nada.

 

[ChrisDee]

I'm going to dive into this a little bit because you just mentioned a point that a lot of people are hanging their hat on. (Pun intended.)

I hope you don't mind. And I'm trying something out here as well.

So taking into account the NEDU Research, I know you know about it. Your pointing out the significance of the fact that the "Decompression Total Stop Time," between the two study condition groups was the same. In essence the amount of time available to decompress was equal. And I should point out this was a fixed time set by the researchers? However in relation to the limited information regarding Micro Bubble formation and the 10 MB levels of conservatism that you can set the G2 devices to, the amount of time to decompress / reduce the formation of micro bubbles, the actual time is free to increase. Time is not constrained. Looking at the chart from the micro bubble management PDF you posted, clearly across the board the total time for any particular dive the time increases as the MB setting increases. And that this kind of cancels the deep stop V shallow stop issue? It seems that the concern about deep stops v shallow stops isn't warranted due to the idea that with an air integrated device the device will take into account the amount of air remaining (Basically Time.) and will take this all into account with the RBT. In a sense even if the G2 makes a "deeper" stop in order to absolutely limit the initial formation of micro bubbles the potential "penalty / risk of DCS" by making deep stops will be negated by the fact that total time will increase? And yes NDL bottom time will decrease but as far as micro bubble formation will be much safer? Seems that so much of this learning experience is missing "depth." Poor choice of words, perhaps. But to me it seems that many have concentrated on times and how that relates to DCS as compared with depths. I'm going to say this this way, perhaps someone can explain better: The G2 makes deep stops as you increase ( More conservatism) MB settings, but the increased overall time takes care of any perceived increase in DCS risk. So it seems that the issue of deep stops Vs shallow stops really isn't a concern for recreational divers more interested in preventing micro bubbles? If preventing micro bubbles for a number of valid reasons is of real importance to you, having MB settings is a very valuable feature. I"m an older recreational diver and this is a subject I want to learn more about, but this subject seems to digress to a deep stop Vs. shallow stop every time. This is the comment that started this whole thing off:
"REDISTRIBUTION OF DECOMPRESSION STOP TIME FROM SHALLOW TO DEEP STOPS INCREASES INCIDENCE OF DECOMPRESSION SICKNESS IN AIR DECOMPRESSION DIVES."

And this conclusion: "The practical conclusion of this study is that controlling bubble formation in fast
compartments with deep stops is unwarranted for air decompression dives." So this whole research really doesn't apply to the MB settings on the G2 in the first place? If the slower tissues are still on gassing, during the higher MB settings, the increased time on ascent will cancel everything out.

In the context of recreational dives, when and where in the context of the G2 your finite air supply is taken into account? So the conclusion of that research really doesn't apply if your concerned more about AGE than anything else? I do wish there was more information about their MB levels and how each level would apply to age, fitness, and those kinds of things?

I noticed this place and joined just because I was searching the internet, I hope this is ok here? I hope no one minds.

So, riddle this:
are dive computers more conservative or are tables more conservative? The G2 allows you to use the "C" algorythm and you can select, basicially constant slope "M" value, by that I mean linear, like something akin to 80/80 or 30/30, to the "M" line, parallel, (do not quote comparisions, because that is not what is taking place.) but I think you get the idea. But when you add in real time intgrated featurs, like breathing rate, and the selectable mb supression idea, variable ascent,.... this makes this like the cake and eating it too! Really puts emphasis on other enviornmental factors, and personal factors which is also where these devices are headed. (downloadable database of selctable historicail record idea. You input your personal factors from database making your individual dive computer very unique, just for you idea.) And you are correct about the 2 confounds in the NEDU study, they were never sufficently addressed. I would agree they are two differing dives with two differing decompression times, and you can never simply dismiss the ambient temperature with unsupported statement. They are not equivelant, not possible. Dive deeper longer need longer deco time, fact. Remember where varying "M" value lines slopes actually are and which theory is more conservative? Remember that this discussion resided between, mostly M line and ambient pressure line / values and not really applicable to recreational multi day diving. NEDU study outside of this range, and also not ethicial, can not really comment further because of ethics. Seems to be promoting rapid ascents , thoughts? Answer your question?

It is a great dive computer, and many can't be bothered to fully read directions before they open mouth. Much confusion about SOS mode. Mostly from others that like to spread rumor. And of course, take good CCR / multi gas education, and you will find many Scubapro G2 answers there. For recreational divers, most likely overkill, but Uwateck out of box most safest for multi dive over multi day, most safest and if you select larger mb level per day, this adds more conservatism, and does better job tracking over time total load. If you exceed NDL limits and create deco dive, (unintentional) G2 basicailly forces DSAT and again eat cake too!

 

[ChrisDee]

I'm going to dive into this a little bit because you just mentioned a point that a lot of people are hanging their hat on. (Pun intended.)

I hope you don't mind. And I'm trying something out here as well.

So taking into account the NEDU Research, I know you know about it. Your pointing out the significance of the fact that the "Decompression Total Stop Time," between the two study condition groups was the same. In essence the amount of time available to decompress was equal. And I should point out this was a fixed time set by the researchers? However in relation to the limited information regarding Micro Bubble formation and the 10 MB levels of conservatism that you can set the G2 devices to, the amount of time to decompress / reduce the formation of micro bubbles, the actual time is free to increase. Time is not constrained. Looking at the chart from the micro bubble management PDF you posted, clearly across the board the total time for any particular dive the time increases as the MB setting increases. And that this kind of cancels the deep stop V shallow stop issue? It seems that the concern about deep stops v shallow stops isn't warranted due to the idea that with an air integrated device the device will take into account the amount of air remaining (Basically Time.) and will take this all into account with the RBT. In a sense even if the G2 makes a "deeper" stop in order to absolutely limit the initial formation of micro bubbles the potential "penalty / risk of DCS" by making deep stops will be negated by the fact that total time will increase? And yes NDL bottom time will decrease but as far as micro bubble formation will be much safer? Seems that so much of this learning experience is missing "depth." Poor choice of words, perhaps. But to me it seems that many have concentrated on times and how that relates to DCS as compared with depths. I'm going to say this this way, perhaps someone can explain better: The G2 makes deep stops as you increase ( More conservatism) MB settings, but the increased overall time takes care of any perceived increase in DCS risk. So it seems that the issue of deep stops Vs shallow stops really isn't a concern for recreational divers more interested in preventing micro bubbles? If preventing micro bubbles for a number of valid reasons is of real importance to you, having MB settings is a very valuable feature. I"m an older recreational diver and this is a subject I want to learn more about, but this subject seems to digress to a deep stop Vs. shallow stop every time. This is the comment that started this whole thing off:
"REDISTRIBUTION OF DECOMPRESSION STOP TIME FROM SHALLOW TO DEEP STOPS INCREASES INCIDENCE OF DECOMPRESSION SICKNESS IN AIR DECOMPRESSION DIVES."

And this conclusion: "The practical conclusion of this study is that controlling bubble formation in fast
compartments with deep stops is unwarranted for air decompression dives." So this whole research really doesn't apply to the MB settings on the G2 in the first place? If the slower tissues are still on gassing, during the higher MB settings, the increased time on ascent will cancel everything out.

In the context of recreational dives, when and where in the context of the G2 your finite air supply is taken into account? So the conclusion of that research really doesn't apply if your concerned more about AGE than anything else? I do wish there was more information about their MB levels and how each level would apply to age, fitness, and those kinds of things?

I noticed this place and joined just because I was searching the internet, I hope this is ok here? I hope no one minds.

Directed at R. I. ,

here is another example of the effects of "that" study on laypeople: What is the best technical diving computer? | Buyers Guide 2023

On the other hand some of the comments about the company itself seem to be spot on. They do rebrand other manufacturers products and increase the price, service is lacking, but Uwatec is a very responsible organization, and they in fact supply information and design long before many of these others even exsisted. The more you know. I sympathize with your plight, the lack of clear and persuasive marketing materials clearly has played into this as well. Sheer volume of those commenters who do not have sufficent information to form judgments, who yet freely proffer their "expert" opinion have a clear effect Postman / Allport would be proud of.

The comments about workload, again retoric. You can easily state that regarding workload there is much evedence over the years and how this relates to deco, not a debatable subject, can claerly see how retoric about raising issue and the power of raising an issue is used. Anyperson with brain can make logic reversal to show fault in thinking. There is fact lot of science, but by ommiting this the authour makes an unsupported claim with great persuasive effect, notice as in many cases, just like "study" no one ever lists opposing facts or opinions. Reminds of retoric / debate class 101. But anyone is clear to see how discussions can be manipulated by someone with an autoratative tone.

These logic Tautologies are everywhere unfortunatly considering the power of the manufacturers and the agendas. The lack of "power" held by an individual diver, this difference is huge. Which is why the manufacturers do what they do. I would guess that UWATEC is regretting selling at this point. Confusion regarding actual functions and proper use is seriously lacking, BUT they bear the responsibility of same. Still the unit is a nice, rugged, rechargable, solid constuction, etc, etc, Largest concern is still "learning curve" and fact that knowledge on use is tightly controlled for planned deco dives. Recretional diving using the G2 is still the best as long as user understands full function. Shame.

I will say, they left the door open by not being receptive to the superior marketing efforts esealy exploited by other manufacturers. And agree usage manual leaves lot to be desired. these people want hand holding, when they don't get it they are naturally attracted to those that will supply more information, even if quality of info substandard. Age old issue,.....this is nich product with limited and highly trained enviornemnt / users. Limited audience so to speak of. Opionion is we do not have to play this game of marketing.

talk more when return.