Sharkbaithawaii
Contributor
ditto
Dead Diver Reported at Spitting Cave
- Thread starter Cacia
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I think it was a couple of months ago where some divers were pulled out of the water. Again, its a rough area, you just need to keep your whits about you.
The captains need to know when to call the dive. I did a charter with my club out there 2 Sundays ago, where a couple got swept away at the Baby Barge (luckily another charter was right there to pick them up,) and the railing at the top of the ladder broke off while someone was climbing up. Simple boat problems that seem to be the norm here on Oahu.
The big problem that day as the boat didn't have a dedicated DM. Instead there was an instructor from another group who was trying to run the whole show (overstepping his bounds in my opinion). Catherine, a possible solution to the charter problems in Hawaii... Boats supplying their own Dive Master, instead of relying on a shop supplied on. This way the Captain and DM are a team, instead of a Captain and his client.
The captains need to know when to call the dive. I did a charter with my club out there 2 Sundays ago, where a couple got swept away at the Baby Barge (luckily another charter was right there to pick them up,) and the railing at the top of the ladder broke off while someone was climbing up. Simple boat problems that seem to be the norm here on Oahu.
The big problem that day as the boat didn't have a dedicated DM. Instead there was an instructor from another group who was trying to run the whole show (overstepping his bounds in my opinion). Catherine, a possible solution to the charter problems in Hawaii... Boats supplying their own Dive Master, instead of relying on a shop supplied on. This way the Captain and DM are a team, instead of a Captain and his client.
ch0ppersrule:
As a tourist can you tell if conditions are unfavorable, the dive might be on the otherside of the Island where it is flat calm, or there is a 6ft swell here but the current will take you round the corner into an open bay where it is safe. Or vice a versa.
This is where local knowledge is essential.
As a tourist I rely on the DM and or the captain to know more about the dive site than I do. I will not let other tourists bully me into a dive as I know they, probably, know less than I do.
However if the DM says
"it should be ok, just be careful of the exit"
or
"it looks ok but it will be to dangerous under the overhang, I am canceling the dive"
then I have to rely on their local knowledge.
Seraphimx
Contributor
Hahahahaaha
Im not blaming the guy. I am for the act on Iraq. But I am just saying dont take for granted that he is a hero or that he would want to be one. Maybe the guy did his job right and thats it nothing more than a job. I dont post this to offend people (wich I surely did because some people msged me being impolite) And in fact Im quite sad at the tragedy. To have to survive that and just die like that. I find it sad and unjust.
Its just that human wear the mask they truly please and never show whats beneath. You idolize him behind a mask of greatness and absolute without even knowing the guy behind. That's what I hate. Dont say things about people when you dont know them.
"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
Can you take this quote and use it in this context?
Written in the 1850's and to a different place and social context?
Im not going there, this is a thread to commemorate this man and his tragic death.
Not your lack of credibility.
Im not blaming the guy. I am for the act on Iraq. But I am just saying dont take for granted that he is a hero or that he would want to be one. Maybe the guy did his job right and thats it nothing more than a job. I dont post this to offend people (wich I surely did because some people msged me being impolite) And in fact Im quite sad at the tragedy. To have to survive that and just die like that. I find it sad and unjust.
Its just that human wear the mask they truly please and never show whats beneath. You idolize him behind a mask of greatness and absolute without even knowing the guy behind. That's what I hate. Dont say things about people when you dont know them.
"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
Can you take this quote and use it in this context?
Written in the 1850's and to a different place and social context?
Im not going there, this is a thread to commemorate this man and his tragic death.
Not your lack of credibility.
Seraphimx
Contributor
If the place is a dangerous spot, maybe the guide and the DM should have a minimum of dives on the site and troughly brief the divers before the dive. Any crew that does not meet these requirement should be sanctioned. And maybe have a rescue diver ready all the time with them. Like in Ice diving.
Anything more you do will prove useless, since people will just pass thru. Make that zone illegal to diving and some retarded people will just go BECAUSE its illegal. You have to regulate it enough but not too much.
Anything more you do will prove useless, since people will just pass thru. Make that zone illegal to diving and some retarded people will just go BECAUSE its illegal. You have to regulate it enough but not too much.
Two points… after some sleep.
Seraphimx: In my book anybody that puts himself in harms way to preserve and extend liberty is a hero. The guys that run into the burning building to save lives are the heroes… What the troops in Iraq are doing is some heavy lifting. I am thankful that we still have men and women who are willing. As I want this post to appear I will refrain from giving expression to what I really think.
Most tourists, regardless of how may dives they have in their logbooks rely on the judgment of the dive boat crew. In a perfect world where all divers have complete information about a dive and its challenges than the diver must make the call themselves. Most divers that I work with… and these are very benign conditions will do to some extent “trust me” dives… they rely on the experience of those who are familiar with the conditions. It’s really tough to come to a site… having paid a not inconsiderable sum… to sit it out. Especially when the crew is not unequivocal about the risks. IMO for a site as Catherine described in conditions as she described it comes close to negligence for a crew to offer a charter without extensive warnings. If negligence is too harsh then please accept “poor judgment”. I believe that dive operators have some “duty of care” to clients… and do not just run taxis services. This is especially true for recreational dive boats and not so true for those operators who specialize in taking well skilled and informed divers to sites with widely known risks that divers may be free to accept. In the northeast where I used to dive some of the deeper wrecks were absolutely off limits for casual divers without the preparation to make these dives.
Seraphimx: In my book anybody that puts himself in harms way to preserve and extend liberty is a hero. The guys that run into the burning building to save lives are the heroes… What the troops in Iraq are doing is some heavy lifting. I am thankful that we still have men and women who are willing. As I want this post to appear I will refrain from giving expression to what I really think.
Most tourists, regardless of how may dives they have in their logbooks rely on the judgment of the dive boat crew. In a perfect world where all divers have complete information about a dive and its challenges than the diver must make the call themselves. Most divers that I work with… and these are very benign conditions will do to some extent “trust me” dives… they rely on the experience of those who are familiar with the conditions. It’s really tough to come to a site… having paid a not inconsiderable sum… to sit it out. Especially when the crew is not unequivocal about the risks. IMO for a site as Catherine described in conditions as she described it comes close to negligence for a crew to offer a charter without extensive warnings. If negligence is too harsh then please accept “poor judgment”. I believe that dive operators have some “duty of care” to clients… and do not just run taxis services. This is especially true for recreational dive boats and not so true for those operators who specialize in taking well skilled and informed divers to sites with widely known risks that divers may be free to accept. In the northeast where I used to dive some of the deeper wrecks were absolutely off limits for casual divers without the preparation to make these dives.
Seraphimx
Contributor
Thanks for quick posting about that and not to keep on that.
I see it as a job and you see it another way . Great now lets carry on.
I totally agree with your point of view. I dive in some crappy conditions and everytime I dive me and my friends we have to get info on the site. Water temp, current, visibility, dangerous time of the year or day, a mini topo of the place, orientation, nearest medical backup and all the steps your supposed to do before diving by the book. But I can understand that when you have a "knowledgable" crewman and dive in an "easy"(relative to the place but warm water, high viz and almost no current is easier with than without)...Florida....Cuba. You tend to trust the guy. But when you do this type of diving. It should be people who are prepared for it. Thats why I propose those "regulation".
-An experienced crew.
-A backup rescue diver.
-A car(or 2 in case of failure) ready at the shore.
-A nice big long briefing that covers everything.
-(maybe a cord or reel to pull people in case of emergency) like in ice diving.
(if there arent many people)
is it too much or am I just a freak.
Thats usually the procedure for Ice diving.
2 divers, 1 Rescue, A whole team of helpers, A medic(optional), A car.
Here you can make it
2-6 divers. 1 DM diver, 1 DM diver topside that will enter next dive.
Divers come up, they wait, DM exchange places and they start over same procedure.
I see it as a job and you see it another way . Great now lets carry on.
I totally agree with your point of view. I dive in some crappy conditions and everytime I dive me and my friends we have to get info on the site. Water temp, current, visibility, dangerous time of the year or day, a mini topo of the place, orientation, nearest medical backup and all the steps your supposed to do before diving by the book. But I can understand that when you have a "knowledgable" crewman and dive in an "easy"(relative to the place but warm water, high viz and almost no current is easier with than without)...Florida....Cuba. You tend to trust the guy. But when you do this type of diving. It should be people who are prepared for it. Thats why I propose those "regulation".
-An experienced crew.
-A backup rescue diver.
-A car(or 2 in case of failure) ready at the shore.
-A nice big long briefing that covers everything.
-(maybe a cord or reel to pull people in case of emergency) like in ice diving.
(if there arent many people)
is it too much or am I just a freak.
Thats usually the procedure for Ice diving.
2 divers, 1 Rescue, A whole team of helpers, A medic(optional), A car.
Here you can make it
2-6 divers. 1 DM diver, 1 DM diver topside that will enter next dive.
Divers come up, they wait, DM exchange places and they start over same procedure.
EastEndDiver
Contributor
After 9/11 my concept of "hero" changed.It is the people you never know who are the true heros.The Military ones standing on the line in some far away place to protect our freedoms with the knowledge that they are overlooked by the majority of those they are protecting,the Firemen and Policemen and EMT workers and the ORDINARY civilian who puts themselves in harms way To protect and help those they don't know.The selfless acts of courage which we will probably never hear about.The caring of strangers.
I guess coming from NY and having served in the Military makes me a little more sensitive to those in Iraq doing what they are doing for us.
All Soldiers are heros ,and not all heros are soldiers.
I guess coming from NY and having served in the Military makes me a little more sensitive to those in Iraq doing what they are doing for us.
All Soldiers are heros ,and not all heros are soldiers.
james croft
Contributor
Well said EastEndDiver !
Seraphimx
Contributor
there you go well said!
but please talk about the subject do you think my proposition is it good?
but please talk about the subject do you think my proposition is it good?
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