DAN Members, DAN Insurance, are you, do you?

[liberato]

DAN's income in 2003 was $8.4 million. Of that, only $835,000 was spent on medical costs. If you are getting DAN insurance for medical costs, you are getting 10 cents on the dollar as a benefit. This is a really poor investment.

I always love a rabble-rouser and I agree that dive insurance is probably extremely profitable to the underwriters as a percentage of premiums paid (and that's OK) but I am not sure of the relevancy of the numbers above. DAN doesn't self-insure so the $835,000 mentioned above is probably not related to liabilities of their dive insurance underwriter. What exactly does "medical costs" mean? Is that what it costs to man the hotline?

 

[dlndavid]

Heck, I even got the DAN credit card with the dive flag logo. Now I know what credit card to use for dive related purchases.
And like my AOW diver card, another chick magnet.

 

[jlayman800]

The premium that I pay for insurance buys me one thing and one thing only. Peace of mind. ... I can assure you that no one is getting rich from DAN premiums. There are office personnel to pay, paper to buy, inkjets, paper clips, phone lines....you name it.

The $100 premium is probably close to the minimum amount needed to cover those costs and crank out a viable contract that will also stand strong on its claim of coverage.

Bottom line is I can afford the hit and ride, and I enjoy my diving much more because of it. I do dive after all for the tranqulity.

Cool answer. You are buying peace of mind. The following is how DAN spends your $8.6 Million per year:

Membership Services 1,906,251 (those neet bumper stickers, phone lines, etc.)
Medical 834,169
Education & Training 963,284
Research 738,013
Business Member Services 379,048
Marketing 528,416
Communications 551,949
International / South America and Canada 344,561
Administration 1,835,022
Unrealized Loss on Derivated Valuation 117,307
Development & Fundraising 430,615
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Total Expenses 8,628,635

They are a non-profit organization so, in the long run, they aren't making any profit. The only reason for higher permiums would be using your money for other things. Some of those things are $738K in research and $834K in medical bills. The other $7 million is paperwork and overhead and as detailed above. You have decided that that's ok with you. It's not OK with me. I love America because we are both allowed to decide instead of having our government force us to pay for something we disagree with. I wish that was true all the time. Social Security, Medicare and a few other government funded (and therefore inefficient) programs come to mind.

The difference between DAN diver's insurance and storm damage insurance is that DAN's medical cost have no potential to take a giant jump. The storm damage insurance in Florida keeps a big pot of money so that when a really bad year comes along, they can still meet their obligations. DAN doesn't need to do that. Excessive permiums (if, in fact they are excessive) are only due to inefficiencies.

Now that I understand that $10 goes to insurance and the rest is other things, I feel even more strongly that the $100 permium is excessive. I hope you will join me in JUST SAYING NO. I would really like to buy the $10.00 in insurance but it's not available without the $90 in other stuff.

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[BIGSAGE136]

Its funny how we never get the concept of religion until faced with the consequences of sin.

 

[Brandon]

Personally, I don't feel that I'm being taken by DAN for my lousy $29 yearly membership, and $35 a year master plan insurance.

Jlayman800's idea that your personal health insurance will cover you for dive accidents may be a valid claim, but keep in mind that they're likely only paying for the medical portion of it. Interrupted trip, extended stays, lost gear, and transportation fees will likely not be covered. If you end up in a chamber, those additional expenses could be quite high.

Also keep in mind that your health insurance -may- take care of you, but you may be dropped from your policy, or have your rates hiked up after a diving related accident. There's also the issue of paying for deductibles, your insurance not being accepted at a chamber, pre-payment for services, etc..

Also, who cares how much DAN takes in / pays out? It's insurance. That's what happens. I feel fine knowing that $29 of my $64 total is going to support DAN programs and research.. and heck, I'm getting a magazine subscription out of the deal too. The $35 a year for insurance is nothing for the peace of mind knowing that I'll be well covered should something happen.

And heck, if Jlayman800 really has a problem with what DAN is charging.. you could go with PADI's V&B insurance, or Diveassure... both of which are more expensive then DAN's insurance. Neither V&B or Diveassure are contributing money to Hyperbaric research, nor have a dive accident hotline staffed by knowledgable individuals.

Make your own choice, I guess. But you're likely calling DAN if an accident happens anyway, so you may as well support an organization that's working to better our sport, versus one making a profit off it.

$35 a year is a very small amount to save yourself from the following:
Having to pre-pay for an expensive chamber ride or air transport.
The hassle of haggling with your insurance company to get reimbursed.
The possibility of having your rates increased into a higher risk bracket.
Being dropped from your insurance.
Meeting a deductible.
Other non-medical charges not being covered.
And so on, and so on...

Outrageously priced... I think not.

-B.

 

[miketsp]

As I understand it the insurance premiums and costs are sub-contracted and are not included/demonstrated in those 8.6MUSD.

 

[JMcD]

Hello all, This is my first post - I signed up for my Open Water course and start in a few weeks... however, I was interested in this thread and feel the urge to comment...

I was reviewing DAN's web site and their 2003 annual report (PDF on their site) clearly outlines that they operate 2 "For Profit" subsidiary companies. One of which is

"Accident and General Insurance Company"

Revenues:$6,690,956
Expenses:$5,489,541

Net Income After Tax: $792,645

Knowing a bit about insurance, it is unlikely that this company actually makes huge profit on the premium charged directly. The company has the advantage of investing premium dollars until such time that claims or operating expenses require funds.

Whatever the operating details, this is not $10. of a $100 premiuum. Additionally, I'd rather have an insurance that is making a decent return so I know they will be available when I need them.

(Looking into getting insurance when done the course...)

JMcD

 

[jlayman800]

Oh, I see. The company doesn't use a third party to provide the insurance. They provide it through a for-profit subsidiary that has an additional income of $6.7 million.
So, how much of their $5.5 million in expenses actually goes to medical costs and what are the rest of the costs? I couldn't find this information in the annual report. Is this an ENRON kind of thing?

I wonder what the $834,000 in medical cost in the non-profit company goes. Is this medical insurance for the 80 employees? Maybe so. $10K each could be close to right.

 

[nauifins73]

I don't understand what you problem is with DAN? As said earlier there are other diving insurance companies out there. DAN also does a lot of research; has excellent training programs & and other projects all of which has benefited the diving community. My preferred plan fees are a small price to pay for what I get in return if I ever need their help.

Becky

 

[trstange]

I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. How much is that helicopter ride from belize?