Curious about accident statistics

[Bretagne]

I would be willing to be the fatalities are statistically higher for people in the 5 to 20 stage and when they are diving by them selves.

In France at least, it seems that experienced divers have more accidents. Is it because they are too much confident? or because they go to more dangerous places? or both (more probably)

 

[Mako Mark]

What are they gonna do?

Act on a world of anecdotal stories?

We're back to safety statistics, where, there's really no noticable risk.

No, they proactively send questionares to students, they act on a case by case basis when they recieve reports of standards violations or shoddy customer service. Then they take action that is appropriate when they discover safety or ethical standards have been violated or misinterpreted.

 

[Don Burke]

In France at least, it seems that experienced divers have more accidents. Is it because they are too much confident? or because they go to more dangerous places? or both (more probably)

In aviation and motorcycle riding, where the statistics are much more complete, there is a danger period when the individual _thinks_ he has the skills down, but does not really and accidents are more common. Those who survive that period go on to do well.

What I am seeing of dive accidents tells me the same may be true of diving.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

No, they proactively send questionares to students, they act on a case by case basis when they recieve reports of standards violations or shoddy customer service. Then they take action that is appropriate when they discover safety or ethical standards have been violated or misinterpreted.

So, how much are you, personally, willing to pay to establish and maintain enforcement that's arguably not needed?

How will you differentiate between the stupidity and complacency of the student, and the stupidity and complacency of the instructor?

How do we establish that a problem actually exists, when, statistically, it simply doesn't.

Got a (newly funded) PADI court to go with the (newly funded) PADI police, or do we just use Judge Judy?

It's just not enforcable.

PADI kicks out the worst trash (probably due to credit problems), and it's all you can expect.

We really have to stop using so much energy to place blame.

On anyone but ourselves, that is.

 

[TCDiver1]

So, how much are you, personally, willing to pay to establish and maintain enforcement that's arguably not needed?

How will you differentiate between the stupidity and complacency of the student, and the stupidity and complacency of the instructor?

How do we establish that a problem actually exists, when, statistically, it simply doesn't.

Got a (newly funded) PADI court to go with the (newly funded) PADI police, or do we just use Judge Judy?

It's just not enforcable.

PADI kicks out the worst trash (probably due to credit problems), and it's all you can expect.

We really have to stop using so much energy to place blame.

On anyone but ourselves, that is.

:06:

 

[Keysdrifter454]

:06:

Whens the last time you reported, and followed through, a complaint to an agency?

Got records of it?

We police ourselves.

We can't rely on others.

Or blame them.

 

[Mako Mark]

Whens the last time you reported, and followed through, a complaint to an agency?

Got records of it?

We police ourselves.

We can't rely on others.

Or blame them.

Woooooa Drifter, dont shoot the messenger here, it sounds like you have a bone to pick, so please elaborate.


are you saying that we shouldnt tell an agency when we see a violation (which is a violation in itself, certainly in PADI)?

Or are you accusing us of NOT reporting to our agencies??

Personally the last person that I reported to PADI was expelled in April this year for fraudulent divemaster applications and repeatedly placing members he managed under duress to break standards,

oh yeah and about the same time I sent a list to PADI a list of 27 instructors that I knew who were teaching while not renewed.

Dont accuse this particular instructor of not doing his part dude, and it cost me dearly, both professionally and financially.

Now, cough up and tell us what you have done to try and help except for come up with what is starting to look like a whiny PADI bashing session.

.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

Woooooa Drifter, dont shoot the messenger here, it sounds like you have a bone to pick, so please elaborate.

The only bone I have to pick is with people who continually whine about inadequate agency OW standards.

Those that bemoan all the injuries and deaths that don't exist, apparently to accentuate the belief of rubes that they are pioneers of this aquatically feral endeavor.

I didn't see you in that group, at least as yet.

But your idea of sending questionaires to students is capricious folly, because they'll deliver an extremely opinionated observation of what they -think- they saw and did.

It can't begin to work.

are you saying that we shouldnt tell an agency when we see a violation (which is a violation in itself, certainly in PADI)?

I don't know how you could extrapolate that from my remarks, but, no, I think we should be proactive.

I think one instructor (I'm not one) commenting on another instructor should carry serious weight.

But a year (or a month) after class, asking students what they were or were not taught is a complete crap shoot.

Or are you accusing us of NOT reporting to our agencies??

Yes, I am that.

Us in the general sense.

Personally the last person that I reported to PADI was expelled in April this year for fraudulent divemaster applications and repeatedly placing members he managed under duress to break standards,

oh yeah and about the same time I sent a list to PADI a list of 27 instructors that I knew who were teaching while not renewed.

I'm sincerely proud of you.

List their names, and the names of any businesses they own, here.

Now, please.

Dont accuse this particular instructor of not doing his part dude, and it cost me dearly, both professionally and financially.

I'm sure the 28 names and whatever associated businesses you supply us with will comfirm that as not being yet another "I did my part" story.

Especially since they are responsible for needlessly endangering the lives of your fellow divers.

I'll be impressed, to the point of apology, -right after- you post that list.

Now, cough up and tell us what you have done to try and help except for come up with what is starting to look like a whiny PADI bashing session.

I, again, can't see how you can extrapolate that idea from my remarks. My point is that only you, and I, can police the dive instruction structure. I recognise PADI for what it is, the most sucessful and forward thinking dive agency of our lifetimes, which has shaped divers and the dive industry into what it is today. Like many things in our sport, this board probably wouldn't exist but for them.

I'm a PADI three day wonder, and proud of it.

About a thousand dives, and counting.


As far as what I've done, I have only anecdotal references of stepping between an instructor and their students, on a boat, in a quarry, in the ocean, in the diveshop, to throw down a bull**** flag. I don't cite them like you did, because I can't prove them like I expect you to, with your serious and specific claim. While I work as an assistant instructor, I haven't the slightest clue of how to report someone to a parent agency. Those here that know me personally, would tell you spine tingling stories of just what I'm capable of doing and saying in public to give others the benefit of my opinion.

 

[Mako Mark]

Thanks Drifter, I just wanted to make sure that this continued to be a constructive thread.

The only bone I have to pick is with people who continually whine about inadequate agency OW standards.

Those that bemoan all the injuries and deaths that don't exist, apparently to accentuate the belief of rubes that they are pioneers of this aquatically feral endeavor..

I agree, the standards are good, and the low morbidity and mortality rates prove it.

When standards are followed, the rates should continue to fall.

But your idea of sending questionaires to students is capricious folly, because they'll deliver an extremely opinionated observation of what they -think- they saw and did.

It can't begin to work.
.

It can and does work, PADI have been doing it since JC was in shorts and now with email, the return has skyrocketed. Opinion is valued, but the questions are very specific: was your first dive between 5 and 12 meters.... etc

I think one instructor (I'm not one) commenting on another instructor should carry serious weight.
.

Yes we all need to take responsability for both our own and others actions. Any instructor who breaks standards is a bad reflection on all of us.

List their names, and the names of any businesses they own, here.

Now.


.

you are going to flame me for this, but the QA process is confidential between PADI and its members..

but here goes: the names and businesses they own

I am continually trying to do my part, I see everything I do as a diver, an instructor and Instructor trainer as part of changing the way the world learns to dive for the better of all involved.

My point is that only you, and I, can police the dive instruction structure. .

I disagree, the agencies MUST be involved as well, I think the whole concept of QA being the PADI police needs to be overthrown and busted.. The Quality management department at PADI's primary objective is QUALITY.... otherwise it would be called the PADI secret police death squad comittee.


.

I don't cite them like you did, because I can't prove them like I expect you to, with your serious and specific claim. While I work as an assistant instructor, I haven't the slightest clue of how to report someone to a parent agency. .

you should know, PADI (and I assume most other agencies) want to know when their members are doing good and bad. Positive reinforcement is as impoprtant as identifying problems.

Here are the contacts

contact PADI quality Management department

I know many of them personally, and I know that their goals are very much the same goals that you have expressed here in this thread.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

Thanks Drifter, I just wanted to make sure that this continued to be a constructive thread.

I just like people to focus on the actual problem, not the haze.

PADI is just like IBM, crying about people's opinions all the way to the bank.

I agree, the standards are good, and the low morbidity and mortality rates prove it.

When standards are followed, the rates should continue to fall.

Keep in mind that I don't (and you probably don't) -approve- of today's OW curriculum, but that's not the question.

The question is, is it sufficient for today's needs?

Yes, it is, obviously.

Most people who stump this argument don't know what the WRSTC is or does, which I find hilarious.

you are going to flame me for this, but the QA process is confidential between PADI and its members..
I am continually trying to do my part, I see everything I do as a diver, an instructor and Instructor trainer as part of changing the way the world learns to dive for the better of all involved.

But you get my point.

Everybody says that they're doing this and that, and it doesn't make much of a dent.

I'm glad you posted the list, though.

I disagree, the agencies MUST be involved as well, I think the whole concept of QA being the PADI police needs to be overthrown and busted.. The Quality management department at PADI's primary objective is QUALITY....

you should know, PADI (and I assume most other agencies) want to know when their members are doing good and bad. Positive reinforcement is as impoprtant as identifying problems.

I agree, but, my point is that their hands are tied.

It turns into a he-said-she-said thing, with everyone pointing fingers.

The best way to do it would be to sneak in examiners as OW students, but that would be too expensive.

I think all you can do is document standards issues, and have them witnessed by those present.

But organizational people should be required to inform you of the outcome.