Curious about accident statistics

[Diver0001]

....snip....

Keep in mind that I don't (and you probably don't) -approve- of today's OW curriculum, but that's not the question.

I'm sure Mark will jump on this too but I'm curious. What, specifically, would you change and why?

I agree, but, my point is that their hands are tied.

It turns into a he-said-she-said thing, with everyone pointing fingers.

Not exactly. If you make a specific concrete first hand report of a standards violation then you can be sure they'll act on it.

The thing is that a lot of the things people moan about are judgment calls and not standards violations. Frankly most people don't know enough about the standards to know what a standards violation is ...... This is where you get into a he-said-she-said and most training organisations don't get involved (and rightly so) in mediating differences of opinion between their pros and the pro's clients unless it gets legal.

As for the "crap shoot".... Most of the agencies are simply too large to keep track of the actions of hundreds of thousands of pros making who-knows-how-many judgement calls every moment of every day 365 days a year. At least part of the job *must* be done with some kind of statistical sampling. In my opinion the agencies have not only a need to do this but a duty to do this, crap shoot or not.

The best way to do it would be to sneak in examiners as OW students, but that would be too expensive.

This idea would do more to hurt than to help. An agency's QA is not only to weed out the idiots, it's also to support well-meaning members who do the wrong things for the rights reasons...... If you turn it into some kind of PADI-SS then people will (a) start covering for each other and (b) making up B.S. about the neighbour to better their own situation by having the SS crawl up the neighbours butt every week. A look at the last 50 years of Russian history would tell you that.

I do, however, agree that the idea in principle of having a "task force" to personally witness the way classes are done in practice would be worth while. If such a task force were to randomly drop in on dive-centres and "help" them with an influx of ideas and best practices from the field then it could do a lot to improve a lot of people's teaching skills. ON the other hand, chances are you'd hardly notice the difference in the accident stats, if at all.....

R..

 

[Squalus]

I am just not aware of any in the last 5 years. I also spoke with a representative of SSI and they weren't aware of any fatalities involving an SSI certified diver either. I called DAN to see what they said, but of course they must call me back.

As for being substantiated, I don't know either and I am not worried about doing so. My interest here is to discuss or help fix a growing trend of diving accidents. If SSI has such a good record, why do they? Is there something they are doing in their training other groups are passsing up? All in All I don't care who has the best record, I am just wondering if SSI or some other organization does have such a great record, can we as dive professionals learn from that record? I think I could.

I was certified by SSI just about all the instructors that I have recieved classes from always stress to never leave your buddy and dive safety. I have had the similar curiosity in to which that the buddy had lost contact with their dive buddy. "I surfaced and could not find my buddy". I also think that we in the diving community have become complacent and that sometimes think that "I can take care of myself and my buddy will be ok if I leave them". To keep this from becoming a trend we need to police within our ranks and reel our buddies in and dive safe, and not become a statistic to be read on this site or any other dive forum. When I achieve my Dive Con certification I will forever preach "Dive with a responsible buddy, never leave a buddy alone and safety is a priority".

 

[Mako Mark]

Keep in mind that I don't (and you probably don't) -approve- of today's OW curriculum, but that's not the question.
.

Im not going to jump on this at all, I do aprove of it and there is little I would change at open water level. I would perhaps make more emphasis on the fact that it is just the beginning of becoming a diver, not the be all and end all, know it all course. I would allow for more real world discovery and de emphasize formal exercises. Training by doing rather training by pretending to do.... Every dive is a training dive.

The question is, is it sufficient for today's needs?

Yes, it is, obviously.
.

Yes it is, that is why I dont think it needs much changing.. If it aint broke, dont fix it (note to self: take your own advice next time you think of destroying half your bathroom plumbing in the name of DIY)

I agree, but, my point is that their hands are tied.

It turns into a he-said-she-said thing, with everyone pointing fingers..

all that is required is good documentation. people that violate standards will be discovered, it is inevitable, it may not happen overnight, but it will happen, and I have seen it happen repeatedly. I have a lot of faith in this system, but that is perhaps because I am a little more familiar with it than you at this point.

The best way to do it would be to sneak in examiners as OW students, but that would be too expensive..

They could film it an then sell it to the networks as the latest reality show, this is called cost recovery.

This idea would do more to hurt than to help. .... If you turn it into some kind of PADI-SS .

The PADI secret police death squad comittee would bring a whole new meaning to termination of membership.

Why would PADI need to personally witness violations, they have nearly quarter of a million members that are bound by ethical standards. How much difference is the secret police going to make?

When he said she said occurs, PADI contacts EVERYBODY involved. and listens to EVERYBODYS story or interpretation of the events, They contact students, instructors, DM's, Store owners, Boat captains ........ EVERYONE. Then they decide what the truth is.

. here is the flowchart of the QA process:

.

 

[Diver0001]

When I achieve my Dive Con certification I will forever preach "Dive with a responsible buddy, never leave a buddy alone and safety is a priority".

Why wait? You don't need to be a Dive Con to say these things.

R..

 

[Squalus]

Why wait? You don't need to be a Dive Con to say these things.

R..

I already do

 

[Squalus]

One last thing that comes to mind is that we truely don't know what is the underlying cause of most dive accidents when they occur (we are not there to witness). Reflecting back upon what I first had posted, one thing I failed to mention is that we need to remember when we first started, we were all apprehensive at one point and in-experienced. Alot has to do with, how many dives they have achieved and the experienced gained on each dive( I should know my mentor won't let me go doubles till I have achieved 100 dives). As for all divers, I would recommend taking either rescue diving or stress and rescue from whatever organization they go through, in case there is something that goes wrong then they will know how to handle it accordingly and not become a statistic.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

I'm sure Mark will jump on this too but I'm curious. What, specifically, would you change and why?

Change?

I dunno.

Add?

Surely.

Not exactly. If you make a specific concrete first hand report of a standards violation then you can be sure they'll act on it.

Then back to my original point.

If all the caterwalling about lack of standards is true, there must not be too-too much of this reporting going on.

You can't have it both ways.

The thing is that a lot of the things people moan about are judgment calls and not standards violations. Frankly most people don't know enough about the standards to know what a standards violation is ...... This is where you get into a he-said-she-said and most training organisations don't get involved (and rightly so) in mediating differences of opinion between their pros and the pro's clients unless it gets legal.

Such again is my point, that asking student who may or may not have been paying attention in class, or even interested, what they were or were not taught wouldn't be too productive.

As for the "crap shoot".... Most of the agencies are simply too large to keep track of the actions of hundreds of thousands of pros making who-knows-how-many judgement calls every moment of every day 365 days a year. At least part of the job *must* be done with some kind of statistical sampling. In my opinion the agencies have not only a need to do this but a duty to do this, crap shoot or not.

It's anecdotal at best.

You've known me long enough to know I love my statistics, Rob.

This idea would do more to hurt than to help. An agency's QA is not only to weed out the idiots, it's also to support well-meaning members who do the wrong things for the rights reasons...... If you turn it into some kind of PADI-SS then people will (a) start covering for each other and (b) making up B.S. about the neighbour to better their own situation by having the SS crawl up the neighbours butt every week. A look at the last 50 years of Russian history would tell you that.

Hookus. If you want to hang someone out to dry, you need an expert opinion. If the instructor knows the expert is there, he won't act or teach the way he might in other situations. In order to pass judgement on a teaching professional, the judge should be at least equally qualified if not moreso, and that leaves studii out.

I do, however, agree that the idea in principle of having a "task force" to personally witness the way classes are done in practice would be worth while. If such a task force were to randomly drop in on dive-centres and "help" them with an influx of ideas and best practices from the field then it could do a lot to improve a lot of people's teaching skills. ON the other hand, chances are you'd hardly notice the difference in the accident stats, if at all.....

See above.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

I was certified by SSI just about all the instructors that I have recieved classes from always stress to never leave your buddy and dive safety. I have had the similar curiosity in to which that the buddy had lost contact with their dive buddy. "I surfaced and could not find my buddy". I also think that we in the diving community have become complacent and that sometimes think that "I can take care of myself and my buddy will be ok if I leave them". To keep this from becoming a trend we need to police within our ranks and reel our buddies in and dive safe, and not become a statistic to be read on this site or any other dive forum. When I achieve my Dive Con certification I will forever preach "Dive with a responsible buddy, never leave a buddy alone and safety is a priority".

Not much of a solo diving proponent, I take it?

Just guessing.

 

[Squalus]

Not much of a solo diving proponent, I take it?

Just guessing.

Do I encourage it.....no. Do I accept the fact that people will do what they want to, yes. However, I do try to discourage people who just completed OW from going out alone just isn't safe.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

Do I encourage it.....no. Do I accept the fact that people will do what they want to, yes. However, I do try to discourage people who just completed OW from going out alone just isn't safe.

In this particular case, you're absolutely correct.